LEO training - school shootings

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chasfm11
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LEO training - school shootings

#1

Post by chasfm11 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:47 pm

We have several social media debates raging now in our area. As you might expect, there is a small but vocal contingent who will not accept anyone but LEOs carrying guns. No one else could ever be qualified. This is especially true of teachers.

The specific discussion is about the Argyle ISD program. A few of us have been trying to get similar programs initiated in a couple of Argyle's surrounding districts.

A fellow supporter posted the School Marshal program link. It contains the requirement for 80 hours of training, if I'm reading correctly.

Here is the context for my question. I know that the police academies have different modules to cover the many facets of police work. I'd like to zero in on the portion of the course content for a new officer that might specifically apply to school shooting situation. I'm certain that officers are trained in dealing with active shooters. But I'm curious about how much time is really involved in that training and how it might compare to the school marshall program training.

A local police chief admitted to me that his officers probably don't understand the LTC related statutes (unless they have an LTC themselves) as well as the LTC holders. I think that is understandable. Someone who has to have broad general knowledge about a topic like the TPC is less likely to understand one specific section of it as well as someone who can concentrate on that section. What I'd like to hear is how that concept could be applied to the training for school shooting or whether it cannot be.

I'm all ears.
Last edited by chasfm11 on Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flechero
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#2

Post by flechero » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:04 pm

chasfm11 wrote:No one else could ever be qualified.

Hard to discuss facts with those types. Sadly many LEO's are NOT well trained with firearms. The reality is that a GREAT MANY "mere civilians" have more training than LEO's.

I don't have the specific info you asked about about active shooter training...


cmgee67
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#3

Post by cmgee67 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:17 pm

Arguing with those who think that other people shouldn’t carry guns except for LEO’s is like arguing with a fence post. The sad part is I know many “civilians” who have more training and know their way around a gun better than most LEO’s I’ve come in contact with. The bad thing with LE agencies is that especially in small towns and rural counties everything is underfunded and not prioritized.

One officer I met told me the first time she ever held and shot a gun was in the academy :shock:

Another officer I spoke with when asked what he was carrying was “idk a Glock 40?” :???:

One officer was carrying a Sig 226 in 40 and I asked him hey which Sig is that ( mind you I already knew) and he said um and pulled it out of his holster and said I believe it’s a Sig (as he read the slide).


The fact is a lot of LEO’s don’t have the gun bug like you and I do and they just carry a gun because they have too.
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chasfm11
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#4

Post by chasfm11 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:21 pm

flechero wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:No one else could ever be qualified.

Hard to discuss facts with those types. Sadly many LEO's are NOT well trained with firearms. The reality is that a GREAT MANY "mere civilians" have more training than LEO's.

I don't have the specific info you asked about about active shooter training...
I knew that some officers are less "gun nuts" than many of us on the forum. They shoot enough to qualify. Others are expert marksman. Generally, the public doesn't understand that spectrum. Everyone is exactly the same. And the "exactly the same" assumption for other than law enforcement is pretty low. To interpret what they've written on the social media posts, we are lucky to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. :biggrinjester:

You would have loved the one from this morning regarding facts. The poster has no specific knowledge of the Argyle program but he just inherently understood that the teacher training in it was inadequate - but it would ALWAYS be in adequate for a teacher. When I replied that the chief of police in Argyle has been intimately involved in the teacher carry program, he said that he didn't trust the chief's judgement on a matter like this. I'm sure that he was one of the "blood in the street" types for the original concealed carry bill. They need to trade in their vivid imaginations for a token of reality.
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#5

Post by carlson1 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:36 pm

I think this Forum is just unique. It is made up of folks that have LTC’s and most continue to want to learn more. Top that with gun enthusiasts and we have a great place.

My son is a detective now and after almost ten years is just not enthusiastically involved with firearms. He carry’s a G19 most of the time with an AR in the trunk. He shoots about three times a year and two of those are for qualifications. I have noticed with his department that the detectives are kind of “specialist” in one or two areas and just have general knowledge of other areas. It appears that most of the uniform officers are just “generic” police. Mostly traffic violation experts if you will.

Some folks are just too stupid to talk to. “Answer not a fool according to his folly.” Just like the fake news has said over and over including some of the victims from the Florida shooting, “there has been 18 school shooting this year.” Mark Kelly spreading false and fake stats today on Fox News.
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TheFriscoKid
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#6

Post by TheFriscoKid » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:03 pm

Strongly agree with LEOs 'on the spectrum'.

The problem is that it's the same with individuals.

I've been shooting for almost 50 years and I continue to learn what I don't know at outstanding rates.


Abraham
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#7

Post by Abraham » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:39 pm

Some of us, including LEO's are not gun enthusiasts.

Some of us civilians like guns, not shooting people for cripes sake.

Some people are foodies, who can't cook enough or watch enough tv food shows. (and I''m sorta one those two, and I've been a Julia Child fan to the point my wife is jealous)...may she rest in peace. I just loved her silly voice and great attitude.

Me, I like shooting because it's fun. Not because I hope to shoot someone. And, well before I joined the
Army Infantry, I was something of an accomplished shooter. The biggest embarrassment of my life was when we went to qualify my rifle broke, quite literarily,and I had to shoot to quality with an un-zeroed rifle. I was lucky to make "Marksmen"...the lowest rating for a rifle shooter. I'm still traumatized as I was an excellent rifleman.

Right now, I'm looking forward to finding out if my sub-compact LC9S is going to have less recoil shooting 147 grain vs. 115. The weather and timing have been off...so I have yet to find out.

Plus, in an odd way, shooting enthusiasts like the physics of shooting. Something anti's can't seem to get a grip on...heck, my old family physician loved shooting clays...and you couldn't possibly find a more loving/caring person.

Gun guys and women don't want to hurt anyone, but they refuse to be victims.

This really makes the anti's crazy...


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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#8

Post by crazy2medic » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:14 pm

As I have mentioned before I have been shooting since I was 4yo, hunting since I was 10, I can never remember not owning at least one gun, when other boys my age were playing football or baseball I was shooting or hunting, in my teens I was reloading, ball sports hold no interest for me, the closest I ever came to my love of guns was Firefighting, nothing like going into a building everybody else is trying to get out of! I taught my son to shoot at 4yo, had him hunting by the time he was 7, when be was 13, his teacher at school told me he had ADHD I laughed at her, told her he could concentrate well enough to hit a golfball size target at 400yds and no we aren't putting him on ritalin! Nobody unless your a pyscho wants to shoot anybody but in turn I'm not going to be a victim, I want to see my Grandchildren grow up and I want to be able to teach them to Shoot!
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Jeff B.
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#9

Post by Jeff B. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:27 pm

Abraham wrote:...

Gun guys and women don't want to hurt anyone, but they refuse to be victims.

This really makes the anti's crazy...
Indeed it does.

My SIL is a hard core Progressive (all in for Hitlery) from MD, right by DC. We essentially don't talk anymore because we simply can't. She cannot conceive of a reason that civilians should own firearms. Extend that attitude into the schools and you see why arming and training school employees ia such a difficult conversation.

Consider this, our politicians, celebrities, banks and airports are all surrounded or accompanied by armed security. Our schools, for the most part are protected by a little sign or signage that says "gun free zone". Doesn't that seem a bit twisted? Toss in that many consider arming and training willing school employees to be a mistake of immense magnitude...

All of this hullaballoo is not designed to "save the children", its designed to deprive YOU of your rights and to render you from a citizen to a SUBJECT.

Jeff B.
Don’t ever let someone get away with telling you that no one wants to take your guns. - Joe Huffman


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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#10

Post by srothstein » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:44 am

The average new officer gets little to no training on school shootings. There is a little bit of the training in the overall tactics section of the basic police officers course, and that can vary with each academy. The overall curriculum is set by TCOLE but there is a lot of allowable variation within the guidelines. If you want to refer anyone who believes police are trained in this, the basic license class (called BPOC) curriculum is available for everyone to read at http://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/cour ... -updates-0.

But, for specific training on active shooters, primarily in schools, Texas State University runs a training center called ALERRT (Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training). They used a couple professors to do research and pick the best evidence based tactics to use, starting after the Columbine shooting. They are the group that started urging the immediate responders to go in after the shooter instead of the prior tactic of securing a perimeter and waiting for SWAT. Only peace officers can get this training as far as I know. As popular as it is, I doubt more than a couple percent of the officers in Texas have received it because of costs and manpower availability. I don't know if anyone has approached them about a course specifically for school marshals, but ti would be a great idea. It would take some state money to pay for it though, so it may no be feasible.

I support allowing LTCs on the staff to carry, as well as adopting a school marshal program. In the case of a debate like you are reading, I would point out that there is one or two (if lucky) officers per campus and many of our campuses are now very large. An officer walking around a campus might be a long time responding to an emergency. Officers on campus, supported by and supervising school marshals and even more staff with LTCs, would be a great combination plane. The marshals and LTCs would be at almost no cost to the school district other than possibly an incremental increase in liability insurance.
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chasfm11
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#11

Post by chasfm11 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:18 am

Thank you Steve. That is exactly what I was looking for. Suddenly, the 80 hours required of teachers in the Argyle program and the 900 rounds of practice for them looks pretty good. I'm fairly certain that they have to use frangible ammo, too.
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#12

Post by LeonCarr » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:10 am

I agree 100% with srothstein.

Most cops (90%) are not gun people, and complain when they have to shoot the whopping 50 rounds a year TCOLE requires to maintain a peace officer license. A lot of active shooter courses are offered as continuing education, but very few officers take advantage of them.

As a LEO and an off and on for 25 years competitive shooter, I have invited many LEOs to shoot a USPSA or IDPA match. They show up, shoot the match, get beat by a 14 year old girl or a 78 year old man, and never show up again.

It is refreshing to see that most of the folks on this forum want to improve and not only shoot more, but shoot better. Argyle ISD is WAY ahead of the game when it comes to school safety and security.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
"Whitetail Deer are extinct because of rifles with telescopes mounted on them." - My 11th Grade English Teacher


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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#13

Post by chasfm11 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:19 pm

This specific argument in our local social media was relative to training. The gun grabbers insist that noone but an LEO is qualified. This is actually just another step down that same road that no one but an LEO is even qualified to carry a gun and then own a gun. They just stick a sign in that same road to fit the current discussion. No teacher ever, regardless of background or training could every be as good as the most basic LEO. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that those same people on social media are 5 minutes later bashing cops.

An interesting point was a poll run on that same social media. The question was: should our local school district adapt the same program as Agyle, yes or no. It turned out more than 3-1 Yes. That sent the nay-sayers into a frenzy. They refused to accept anyone but DPS (because they also protect higher education locations) for public schools but finally agreed that a teacher who had taken the same modules taught in DPS training along with equal psyc eval and firearm qualifications "might" be a possibility. They never give up and will try to make the implementation as difficult as possible.

There was a sobering question asked by one of them. Could you shoot a kid? That one gave me pause. But here is another: could a cop shoot a kid? I think that we all understand that law enforcement officers are people, too, and most of them are as concerned about children as any of us. The gun grabber was implying that arming teachers was silly because they had dedicated their lives to protecting lives and would be unwilling to lay down defensive fire against someone like Lanza or perhaps even the Fl. shooter. I'm not sure that any amount of training is going to help anyone deal with that.
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TheFriscoKid
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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#14

Post by TheFriscoKid » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:03 pm

A data point from Parkland -

The only armed guard at the high school - deputy Scot Peterson never discharged his gun during the entire shooting. Reports state he was seeking cover behind a concrete column in the parking lot. Peterson is a 30 year veteran.

A bit more about ineffective response from the LEOs.

There is a spectrum indeed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/p ... oting.html


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Re: LEO training - school shootings

#15

Post by howdy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:17 pm

I have posted in other areas of this forum about the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. The law will not let me be specific about the program and the training but I can say the Pilots went through the same scrutiny as the Teachers are now. I think the main sticking point is the government condoning a civilian being armed. I think they believe you must have that government paycheck and ID to be official. Well, in the FFDO program, we did get a Federal LEO ID and badge. We are not paid. It is strictly voluntary and applicants must go through screening with both written tests and interviews with Psychiatrists. You must go to the training on your days off. The training goes from 7 in the morning until 8 in the evening. Most of the time is spent on the range. The training is extensive and very centered on protecting the aircraft from threats. We have very specific rules of engagement and what we can and can't do. The FFDO's are not identified to passengers or anyone not associated with the crew. We do face to face briefings with all armed passengers on the flight. The program has been around since 2003 (I was in the second class) and there has not been an attempted takeover of a US air carrier aircraft during that time. Teachers could volunteer for this type of training and attend during the summer. The issue might be the cost involved in the training but I think this could be worked out. I would pay for my (Teacher)
Daughter to attend.
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