Deputy Scot Peterson

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Boxerrider
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#151

Post by Boxerrider » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:34 pm

Ruark wrote:I worked for 15 years with state and federal school finance, and budgeting will be a core issue here. Many schools can barely afford to replace their light bulbs, much less pay a professional security guard $50,000 a year. And what about larger schools that are scattered out, with 10, 20 or more temporary classroom buildings? Stoneman Douglas covers 45 acres. That's as big as the University of Texas at Austin. What are they supposed to do, hire 40 armed security personnel, all of which will spend their time standing around waiting for a shooting that, statistically, will never happen? Even if you had them, would that stop a lunatic who is going to shoot himself anyway?

Of course, the Plan B is volunteers, but even then you run into logistical issues where multiple buildings are concerned, given that a shooter can kill 2 or 3 dozen kids in a matter of seconds.

The best answer might be to control access not to the school, but to the campus itself. Most schools already have tall fencing around them. So maybe an approach is to put in an entry gate, where only approved vehicles and/or personnel can enter. Non-approved persons (e.g. visiting parents, special guests, etc.) could step through a metal detector next to the gate. It would only require 1 or 2 personnel, and the whole thing could probably be contracted out by the school district.

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, but from a budgeting and effectiveness standpoint, something like that is MUCH more feasible than having a platoon of armed guards wandering around all day.
While I do agree with you, Broward schools may not be the best example of poor schools. When the shooting started superintendent Runcie was presenting the teacher of the year with a new Toyota Camry.
The funding issue is one of the main reasons I feel this is a local issue, not a state one, and definitely not a federal one. Each local district assesses their level of risk, funding available, other resources . . . and implements a plan they feel is appropriate. Each district is also responsible for it's success.

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Oldgringo
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#152

Post by Oldgringo » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Is this thread causing discord and division among the CHL tried and true? If so, let's shut it down. We have an ever growing battle before us, our progeny and our country; we need unity, we do not need bickering among ourselves over the meaning of "is" or "whatever"!


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#153

Post by flashman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:49 pm

I think the forum is mature enough to have some disagreement but still be united overall in the "big" picture.

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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#154

Post by Liberty » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:30 am

Boxerrider wrote:
While I do agree with you, Broward schools may not be the best example of poor schools. When the shooting started superintendent Runcie was presenting the teacher of the year with a new Toyota Camry.
The funding issue is one of the main reasons I feel this is a local issue, not a state one, and definitely not a federal one. Each local district assesses their level of risk, funding available, other resources . . . and implements a plan they feel is appropriate. Each district is also responsible for it's success.
I think it worth noting that most of these school shootings seem to happen in the more affluent communities. I can't recall a mass school shooting at the inner city schools, where the shootings are more likely to be in the darkened streets.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#155

Post by Rob72 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:44 am

OlBill wrote:
I've been thinking about your reference to Boyd's Loop. Very interesting.

I would say that the shooter shattered everyone's loop with his first shot.

So what does it take to get it back?

How do you regroup and regain the initiative?

Of course I disagree about it not being a rifle vs. pistol fight.
The ability to verbalize and execute (in drill) your decisional model, and to do so with injected random variables, is a strong indicator of success(or failure). If the first shot broke the decisional process for someone, then by definition, they had no effective decisional model with which to begin.

School officers: (should)

* intimately know the terrain
* intimately know many, if not most, persons at the scene
* be trained to initiate a fundamental response, regardless of the nature of the threat. Afterall, their job is to maintain order.
* have assessed their personal capabilities
* rectified deficiencies
* have assessed hardware capabilities/deficiencies
* made reasonable efforts to notify Command of their personal findings

Bottom line, whether it is a fire alarm, gunshot, "Big BOOM," whatever, the initial Assess, Secure, Intervene, should be pretty uniform, and immediately implemented.


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#156

Post by Rob72 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:50 am

Liberty wrote:
Boxerrider wrote:
While I do agree with you, Broward schools may not be the best example of poor schools. When the shooting started superintendent Runcie was presenting the teacher of the year with a new Toyota Camry.
The funding issue is one of the main reasons I feel this is a local issue, not a state one, and definitely not a federal one. Each local district assesses their level of risk, funding available, other resources . . . and implements a plan they feel is appropriate. Each district is also responsible for it's success.
I think it worth noting that most of these school shootings seem to happen in the more affluent communities. I can't recall a mass school shooting at the inner city schools, where the shootings are more likely to be in the darkened streets.
An excellent read, that covers pretty much all variables in how these incidents erupt and evolve. Korem's theory is comprehensive, and does not rely on a given social/political/economic theory.

http://www.ifpinc.com/books/rage-of-the-random-actor/


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#157

Post by OlBill » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:49 pm

Rob72 wrote:
OlBill wrote:
I've been thinking about your reference to Boyd's Loop. Very interesting.

I would say that the shooter shattered everyone's loop with his first shot.

So what does it take to get it back?

How do you regroup and regain the initiative?

Of course I disagree about it not being a rifle vs. pistol fight.
The ability to verbalize and execute (in drill) your decisional model, and to do so with injected random variables, is a strong indicator of success(or failure). If the first shot broke the decisional process for someone, then by definition, they had no effective decisional model with which to begin.

School officers: (should)

* intimately know the terrain
* intimately know many, if not most, persons at the scene
* be trained to initiate a fundamental response, regardless of the nature of the threat. Afterall, their job is to maintain order.
* have assessed their personal capabilities
* rectified deficiencies
* have assessed hardware capabilities/deficiencies
* made reasonable efforts to notify Command of their personal findings

Bottom line, whether it is a fire alarm, gunshot, "Big BOOM," whatever, the initial Assess, Secure, Intervene, should be pretty uniform, and immediately implemented.
I respectfully disagree with your first paragraph and I believe Boyd would as well. My friends and I were pretty good at shattering loops. We didn't all them to be rebuilt.

I agree with all of your bullet points - in a perfect world. The world is not perfect, as we can see by them sending one man to address 45 acres and I believe thousands of students.

He claims his assessment led him to "secure" outside. I believe there is more to this than we've been told. The Sheriff smells funny.

Not going with the Coral Gables PD team after the response was built is a much fairer criticism in my opinion.


Hoodasnacks
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#158

Post by Hoodasnacks » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote: May Jesus forgive me for feeling the way I do about Peterson and the other sorry excuses for men.
Chas.

He will Charles. In this crazy world, that is the only thing I am sure of...


Rob72
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#159

Post by Rob72 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:05 pm

If your profession is arms, does your primary decisional domain include violence? If the essential framework (for applying OODA) does not include receiving and/or delivering violence, you have models in place that have inherently failed before you have contact, right? E.g., if I'm a triathelete, I have to have a plan for changing a bike tire, at speed. It may only happen once in 5 years, but that plan is imperative, if I plan to win.

We have a domain in which we operate, in which certain events are common/probable/possible, and our OODA-loop should be tagged to key event points within that domain, and flexible for greater/lesser resource demands, and capable of cascading, perhaps in some state of chaos, but with direction towards a goal of survivability and maintenance of resources/assets. If I'm "free-flying", in a completely new environment, with unfamiliar resources and no intel, then I am left with only a reflexive loop, with diminishied survivability.

A measure of mental "war-gaming" is necessary to validate a decisional model, and clearly, that didn't happen, so I'm not sure of the disagreement...?

In any event, I do agree, there is quite a bit more to the story, and I would not expect it to be good.


Boxerrider
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#160

Post by Boxerrider » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:37 pm

Rob72 wrote:An excellent read, that covers pretty much all variables in how these incidents erupt and evolve. Korem's theory is comprehensive, and does not rely on a given social/political/economic theory.

http://www.ifpinc.com/books/rage-of-the-random-actor/
Thanks, I'll read it!


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#161

Post by TreyHouston » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:38 pm

Oldgringo wrote:Is this thread causing discord and division among the CHL tried and true? If so, let's shut it down. We have an ever growing battle before us, our progeny and our country; we need unity, we do not need bickering among ourselves over the meaning of "is" or "whatever"!
:iagree: :smash:
There are many like this here now. Did we suddenly get hit with a lot of Russian trolls??? I haven’t seen the forum like this before (in my short 2 years)
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas

How many times a day could you say this? :cheers2:


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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#162

Post by mrvmax » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:30 am

Ruark wrote:I worked for 15 years with state and federal school finance, and budgeting will be a core issue here. Many schools can barely afford to replace their light bulbs, much less pay a professional security guard $50,000 a year. And what about larger schools that are scattered out, with 10, 20 or more temporary classroom buildings? Stoneman Douglas covers 45 acres. That's as big as the University of Texas at Austin. What are they supposed to do, hire 40 armed security personnel, all of which will spend their time standing around waiting for a shooting that, statistically, will never happen? Even if you had them, would that stop a lunatic who is going to shoot himself anyway?
If they get the priorities straight then they will find the money. I’m certainly not familiar with it like you are but I do know two things. First, my property taxes that fund public schools have never gone down since I’ve owned my house. They are getting plenty of money (the schools around me). Second, they need to prioritize and cut waste first then programs they cannot afford it they want security. What’s more important, safety of the children or the football program for little Johnny (or water polo, or volleyball, or baseball etc.) ? They may have to cut things they don’t like and stop spending so much. I guarantee I can walk in there and find plenty of money to redirect to school security. When I took a 1/3 pay cut at my job in order to have a way to move up I cut deep and got rid of everything not essential. I did what I had to at the time and the schools need to do the same. I can think of numerous luxeries at the high schools around me. Do they need these natatoriums? What about these massive stadiums? I’m sure smaller districts in poorer areas have less and that’s an issue that will need to be addressed and it can be done without raising taxes.

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Mel
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#163

Post by Mel » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:22 am

mrvmax wrote:
Ruark wrote: What’s more important, safety of the children or the football program for little Johnny (or water polo, or volleyball, or baseball etc.) ? They may have to cut things they don’t like and stop spending so much. I guarantee I can walk in there and find plenty of money to redirect to school security. When I took a 1/3 pay cut at my job in order to have a way to move up I cut deep and got rid of everything not essential. I did what I had to at the time and the schools need to do the same. I can think of numerous luxeries at the high schools around me. Do they need these natatoriums? What about these massive stadiums? I’m sure smaller districts in poorer areas have less and that’s an issue that will need to be addressed and it can be done without raising taxes.
Unfortunately I don't think you will find anything more important than Football programs at high schools. On my drive to the gym I have to zig-zag among potholes at less than 20 mph on a street than hasn't been repaved in over 25 years. At the end of that street sits a multi-million dollar high school football stadium.
Mel
Airworthiness Inspector specializing in Experimental and Light-Sport Aircraft since the last Century.


Redneck_Buddha
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#164

Post by Redneck_Buddha » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:58 pm

Redneck_Buddha wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:
Redneck_Buddha wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:Had it been you OR me, what would you OR I have done? Just wonderin'.....
That question is only valid if you are asking forumites who are LEOs.

I knew someone would pop up to defend this derelict coward.
If you're accusing me of defending him, you are wrong......among other things!
I wasn't referring to you and not sure what you mean by "among other things".
Crickets...
Stop slackin', start packin'.
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mrvmax
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Re: Deputy Scot Peterson

#165

Post by mrvmax » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:06 pm

Mel wrote:
mrvmax wrote:
Ruark wrote: What’s more important, safety of the children or the football program for little Johnny (or water polo, or volleyball, or baseball etc.) ? They may have to cut things they don’t like and stop spending so much. I guarantee I can walk in there and find plenty of money to redirect to school security. When I took a 1/3 pay cut at my job in order to have a way to move up I cut deep and got rid of everything not essential. I did what I had to at the time and the schools need to do the same. I can think of numerous luxeries at the high schools around me. Do they need these natatoriums? What about these massive stadiums? I’m sure smaller districts in poorer areas have less and that’s an issue that will need to be addressed and it can be done without raising taxes.
Unfortunately I don't think you will find anything more important than Football programs at high schools. On my drive to the gym I have to zig-zag among potholes at less than 20 mph on a street than hasn't been repaved in over 25 years. At the end of that street sits a multi-million dollar high school football stadium.
I know, I'm pretty sure people will get really irate if the football programs would have to be cut in order to provide security for the schools.

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