Purchased a gun for a friend

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RoyGBiv
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#61

Post by RoyGBiv » Fri May 11, 2018 10:23 am

cyphertext wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote: I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
That's where I have the issue... paperwork from auction has one name on it and another person wants to do the 4473. As the FFL, I have no idea who is who and should not complete the transfer.

No, If you pay for the handgun at the LGS, you must be the one doing the paperwork. Again, it looks like a straw sale since you are paying but the friend is doing the paperwork. As the FFL, I have no way of knowing that the friend is going to pay you back, or why you are doing this... From what I can see you are paying for the gun but someone else is doing the paperwork. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume that you are not doing the paperwork because you can not pass the background check.
That makes sense... Thanks.
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ScottDLS
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#62

Post by ScottDLS » Fri May 11, 2018 10:51 am

cyphertext wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
You are correct. This is the right way to do it. The auction site, payment, and notation on the auction slip are irrelevant. The auction FFL transfers the gun to the local FFL. Who paid and what credit card etc. etc. are irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person that receives the transfer from the local FFL is the end user of the gun. If a few days later he decides to sell it fine. But when he picks it up he intends to use it himself.
Payment is not irrelevant. Go look at the 4473. "Actual transferee/Buyer" is how it is listed. You aren't the actual buyer if you aren't the one paying for it. This scenario is outlined in the examples as well.
You are the actual buyer if you really keep it. It doesn't matter if your buddy gave you the money as long as you take possession. It doesn't matter if your company reimburses you for the gun because you bought it for work, or if they bought it directly. The paperwork is to the transferee for transfer of control/possession. The title can be held by another individual and is a matter of state law.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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ScottDLS
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#63

Post by ScottDLS » Fri May 11, 2018 11:02 am

cyphertext wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote: I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
That's where I have the issue... paperwork from auction has one name on it and another person wants to do the 4473. As the FFL, I have no idea who is who and should not complete the transfer.

No, If you pay for the handgun at the LGS, you must be the one doing the paperwork. Again, it looks like a straw sale since you are paying but the friend is doing the paperwork. As the FFL, I have no way of knowing that the friend is going to pay you back, or why you are doing this... From what I can see you are paying for the gun but someone else is doing the paperwork. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume that you are not doing the paperwork because you can not pass the background check.
Your example has "indications" that the transferee might be conducting a straw purchase and the ATF will want to you take that into account while deciding whether to accept the sale. But what if my buddy gives me $500 to by MYSELF a new pistol. I go into your shop and fill out the 4473 without my buddy present and buy the gun and keep it. Is that a straw sale because the person gave me the money? What if he writes me a check I offer to endorse it over to the gun store to buy the gun, THAT I THEN KEEP. Ignore the issue of whether a business takes 3rd party checks. Is the transaction legal? YES. If my buddy comes in the store points at the gun, says "I want that one" hands me $500 and I fill out the paperwork and take and KEEP the gun (we came in separate cars) can the ATF prosecute me without a transfer to my buddy taking place? NO. Can they gig the FFL? Maybe by upping the date for his inspection, but there is no legal jeopardy as long as I keep the gun.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#64

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 am

ScottDLS wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote: I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
That's where I have the issue... paperwork from auction has one name on it and another person wants to do the 4473. As the FFL, I have no idea who is who and should not complete the transfer.

No, If you pay for the handgun at the LGS, you must be the one doing the paperwork. Again, it looks like a straw sale since you are paying but the friend is doing the paperwork. As the FFL, I have no way of knowing that the friend is going to pay you back, or why you are doing this... From what I can see you are paying for the gun but someone else is doing the paperwork. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume that you are not doing the paperwork because you can not pass the background check.
Your example has "indications" that the transferee might be conducting a straw purchase and the ATF will want to you take that into account while deciding whether to accept the sale. But what if my buddy gives me $500 to by MYSELF a new pistol. I go into your shop and fill out the 4473 without my buddy present and buy the gun and keep it. Is that a straw sale because the person gave me the money? What if he writes me a check I offer to endorse it over to the gun store to buy the gun, THAT I THEN KEEP. Ignore the issue of whether a business takes 3rd party checks. Is the transaction legal? YES. If my buddy comes in the store points at the gun, says "I want that one" hands me $500 and I fill out the paperwork and take and KEEP the gun (we came in separate cars) can the ATF prosecute me without a transfer to my buddy taking place? NO. Can they gig the FFL? Maybe by upping the date for his inspection, but there is no legal jeopardy as long as I keep the gun.
If your buddy gives you the money as a gift and you buy the gun and do the paperwork with the intent to keep it, no problem.

Same thing as if friend purchased you a gift card that you used towards the purchase of a firearm, that you intended to keep. That is fine, no red flags.

But that is not the scenario here. The OP made the purchase for the friend. He has clearly stated that he made the purchase for a friend because the friend did not have a GB account.
Any scenario where one person says I want this and another person pays and/or does paperwork should be stopped by the FFL.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#65

Post by ScottDLS » Fri May 11, 2018 11:39 am

cyphertext wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote: I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
That's where I have the issue... paperwork from auction has one name on it and another person wants to do the 4473. As the FFL, I have no idea who is who and should not complete the transfer.

No, If you pay for the handgun at the LGS, you must be the one doing the paperwork. Again, it looks like a straw sale since you are paying but the friend is doing the paperwork. As the FFL, I have no way of knowing that the friend is going to pay you back, or why you are doing this... From what I can see you are paying for the gun but someone else is doing the paperwork. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume that you are not doing the paperwork because you can not pass the background check.
Your example has "indications" that the transferee might be conducting a straw purchase and the ATF will want to you take that into account while deciding whether to accept the sale. But what if my buddy gives me $500 to by MYSELF a new pistol. I go into your shop and fill out the 4473 without my buddy present and buy the gun and keep it. Is that a straw sale because the person gave me the money? What if he writes me a check I offer to endorse it over to the gun store to buy the gun, THAT I THEN KEEP. Ignore the issue of whether a business takes 3rd party checks. Is the transaction legal? YES. If my buddy comes in the store points at the gun, says "I want that one" hands me $500 and I fill out the paperwork and take and KEEP the gun (we came in separate cars) can the ATF prosecute me without a transfer to my buddy taking place? NO. Can they gig the FFL? Maybe by upping the date for his inspection, but there is no legal jeopardy as long as I keep the gun.
If your buddy gives you the money as a gift and you buy the gun and do the paperwork with the intent to keep it, no problem.

Same thing as if friend purchased you a gift card that you used towards the purchase of a firearm, that you intended to keep. That is fine, no red flags.

But that is not the scenario here. The OP made the purchase for the friend. He has clearly stated that he made the purchase for a friend because the friend did not have a GB account.
Any scenario where one person says I want this and another person pays and/or does paperwork should be stopped by the FFL.
It should be no problem if the friend goes and fills in the 4473. The previous transfer "sale" had nothing to do with who was paying for the auction. The first transfer is from FFL to FFL. No straw purchase by definition. Then the friend comes in a picks up the gun that OP "paid for", no problem. The auction site FFL is not responsible to tell the receiving FFL who to transfer it to. The legal transfer takes place from the inventory of one FFL to the other, even though neither of them is actually paying for the gun (other than a transfer fee).
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#66

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Fri May 11, 2018 11:50 am

ScottDLS wrote: It should be no problem if the friend goes and fills in the 4473. The previous transfer "sale" had nothing to do with who was paying for the auction. The first transfer is from FFL to FFL. No straw purchase by definition. Then the friend comes in a picks up the gun that OP "paid for", no problem. The auction site FFL is not responsible to tell the receiving FFL who to transfer it to. The legal transfer takes place from the inventory of one FFL to the other, even though neither of them is actually paying for the gun (other than a transfer fee).
:iagree: but IANAL.

If the purchaser gives the seller the friend's name along with the FFL info, then the seller will have the gun sent to the receiving FFL with the friend's name (and usually also the friend's telephone number). Friend comes in, picks up the gun, pays the FFL fee, and passes the background check. Friend accurately answers that they are the actual purchaser on the 4473 form. Friend then reimburses the guy who paid the seller, and who acted as the bidding agent.

There is no straw purchase because there is no transfer of the gun with the intent to give it to anyone else. There are also no "red flags" to worry about.

As an aside, this could all be cleared up by changing the law so that it is only a straw purchase if you buy a gun for someone that you know cannot legally purchase a gun. It is a bit ridiculous that it is illegal to buy a gun "for" person X. But it is not illegal to buy a gun, and then sell it to person X in the parking lot as you are leaving your FFL dealer. That actually almost happened to me once. I was picking up a hard to find gun that I bought online. A guy standing at the counter told me that he had looked everywhere for that gun, and asked me where I got it. Then he asked me what I had paid. Then he offered me what I had paid +$100 for it. I said no because I really wanted that gun. But would it have been illegal for me to say yes? His offer came AFTER I had fully completed the transfer.
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#67

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 11:56 am

ScottDLS wrote:
It should be no problem if the friend goes and fills in the 4473. The previous transfer "sale" had nothing to do with who was paying for the auction. The first transfer is from FFL to FFL. No straw purchase by definition. Then the friend comes in a picks up the gun that OP "paid for", no problem. The auction site FFL is not responsible to tell the receiving FFL who to transfer it to. The legal transfer takes place from the inventory of one FFL to the other, even though neither of them is actually paying for the gun (other than a transfer fee).
I disagree... The friend coming in to do the background check that the OP paid for is a red flag and is an issue. You are looking for a loophole. Again, if this was a brick and mortar only scenario, if OP pays and friend does paperwork, the transfer should be stopped by the FFL. You are adding a step by purchasing online, but the premise remains the same. The FFL is handling the transfer started by the original transaction for a fee... these are not separate deals. FFL A didn't send the firearm to FFL B to be added to inventory to be transferred to anyone... FFL A sent it to FFL B to complete the transfer to the OP, the purchaser only. OP paid for the firearm which is the whole reason it left FFL A inventory.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#68

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
:iagree: but IANAL.

If the purchaser gives the seller the friend's name along with the FFL info, then the seller will have the gun sent to the receiving FFL with the friend's name (and usually also the friend's telephone number). Friend comes in, picks up the gun, pays the FFL fee, and passes the background check. Friend accurately answers that they are the actual purchaser on the 4473 form. Friend then reimburses the guy who paid the seller, and who acted as the bidding agent.

There is no straw purchase because there is no transfer of the gun with the intent to give it to anyone else. There are also no "red flags" to worry about.

As an aside, this could all be cleared up by changing the law so that it is only a straw purchase if you buy a gun for someone that you know cannot legally purchase a gun. It is a bit ridiculous that it is illegal to buy a gun "for" person X. But it is not illegal to buy a gun, and then sell it to person X in the parking lot as you are leaving your FFL dealer. That actually almost happened to me once. I was picking up a hard to find gun that I bought online. A guy standing at the counter told me that he had looked everywhere for that gun, and asked me where I got it. Then he asked me what I had paid. Then he offered me what I had paid +$100 for it. I said no because I really wanted that gun. But would it have been illegal for me to say yes? His offer came AFTER I had fully completed the transfer.
Ok, so you are the internet FFL. Guy calls you, orders gun, provides payment for gun, but says guy B is going to pick up the gun and do the paperwork... That doesn't raise any flags to you? You are selling the gun to guy A, but guy B is filling out the paperwork? You don't know guy A, so you can't possibly know why he is doing this despite what he tells you.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#69

Post by BBYC » Fri May 11, 2018 12:08 pm

OK, so cyphertext, in this situation who do you think is the actual buyer?
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#70

Post by ScottDLS » Fri May 11, 2018 12:11 pm

cyphertext wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
It should be no problem if the friend goes and fills in the 4473. The previous transfer "sale" had nothing to do with who was paying for the auction. The first transfer is from FFL to FFL. No straw purchase by definition. Then the friend comes in a picks up the gun that OP "paid for", no problem. The auction site FFL is not responsible to tell the receiving FFL who to transfer it to. The legal transfer takes place from the inventory of one FFL to the other, even though neither of them is actually paying for the gun (other than a transfer fee).
I disagree... The friend coming in to do the background check that the OP paid for is a red flag and is an issue. You are looking for a loophole. Again, if this was a brick and mortar only scenario, if OP pays and friend does paperwork, the transfer should be stopped by the FFL. You are adding a step by purchasing online, but the premise remains the same. The FFL is handling the transfer started by the original transaction for a fee... these are not separate deals. FFL A didn't send the firearm to FFL B to be added to inventory to be transferred to anyone... FFL A sent it to FFL B to complete the transfer to the OP, the purchaser only. OP paid for the firearm which is the whole reason it left FFL A inventory.
In the auction scenario this takes place all the time. Seller A advertises the gun on Gunbroker for sale. A bidder B wins the bid. B pays A, then provides instructions to get it to a FFL of B's choice. A gets paid by B. A transfers the gun to his dealer "Gunbroker FFL'" with instructions on sending it to B's FFL. There is no requirement to even provide B's name. B could even be unqualified to own a firearm. Gunbroker FFL sends it to B FFL. Completely legal transfer. No money involved. B FFL receives the gun and can then legally transfer it to any qualified buyer in his state. There's no entry in the FFL Record of Firearm Acquisitions and Dispositions for whom the gun is ultimately destined. There is one entry to log in from A's FFL, then one entry to sell it to whomever picks it up. Who pays is irrelevant UNLESS the transferee bought the gun with intent to supply it to someone else AND ACTUALLY DOES. Then the payments can be an indication of intent. ATF still has to prove this.
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#71

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 12:13 pm

BBYC wrote:OK, so cyphertext, in this situation who do you think is the actual buyer?
I have no way of knowing... Have one guy paying, another guy doing paperwork. I would stop the transfer.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#72

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Fri May 11, 2018 12:21 pm

cyphertext wrote:
BBYC wrote:OK, so cyphertext, in this situation who do you think is the actual buyer?
I have no way of knowing... Have one guy paying, another guy doing paperwork. I would stop the transfer.
So you are not saying it's illegal, just strange enough for you to want to be cautious as an FFL. I think that is reasonable.

To answer your question to me, let's say I PM "cyphertext" and tell you that I want to buy a gun you have listed, and could you please send it to my FFL. I then give you a name, and the receiving FFL info, and send you a money order. You send the gun to my receiving FFL, and a guy shows up with ID that matches the name I gave you. He fills out the 4473, and passes the background check. No red flags.
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#73

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 12:25 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
In the auction scenario this takes place all the time. Seller A advertises the gun on Gunbroker for sale. A bidder B wins the bid. B pays A, then provides instructions to get it to a FFL of B's choice. A gets paid by B. A transfers the gun to his dealer "Gunbroker FFL'" with instructions on sending it to B's FFL. There is no requirement to even provide B's name. B could even be unqualified to own a firearm. Gunbroker FFL sends it to B FFL. Completely legal transfer. No money involved. B FFL receives the gun and can then legally transfer it to any qualified buyer in his state. There's no entry in the FFL Record of Firearm Acquisitions and Dispositions for whom the gun is ultimately destined. There is one entry to log in from A's FFL, then one entry to sell it to whomever picks it up. Who pays is irrelevant UNLESS the transferee bought the gun with intent to supply it to someone else AND ACTUALLY DOES. Then the payments can be an indication of intent. ATF still has to prove this.
I'm not sure about B FFL can transfer to anyone... It has been purchased by bidder B. Seller A has to include bidder B's name, as B FFL wouldn't know who to call otherwise to come pick up the gun! I understand what is required in the book. I also understand what the law says, and what the spirit of the law is. Maybe you would put your livelihood at risk by doing the transfer. I would not.

IANAL, but have worked firearm sales. Just going from the training I received and experience. And I don't think that this happens all the time in internet sales, where one person pays and another does the paperwork.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#74

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
BBYC wrote:OK, so cyphertext, in this situation who do you think is the actual buyer?
I have no way of knowing... Have one guy paying, another guy doing paperwork. I would stop the transfer.
So you are not saying it's illegal, just strange enough for you to want to be cautious as an FFL. I think that is reasonable.

To answer your question to me, let's say I PM "cyphertext" and tell you that I want to buy a gun you have listed, and could you please send it to my FFL. I then give you a name, and the receiving FFL info, and send you a money order. You send the gun to my receiving FFL, and a guy shows up with ID that matches the name I gave you. He fills out the 4473, and passes the background check. No red flags.
Right, it technically may not be illegal, but it throws up enough red flags that I wouldn't complete the transfer.

In that scenario, if you represent yourself as the person who will be doing the 4473, and the money order clears, I would send the gun to your FFL. I have no reason to believe there is anything hinky. If I am the receiving FFL, the incoming firearm should have paperwork telling me who purchased it. If that name matches the id of the person picking it up and doing the paperwork, again, no red flags.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#75

Post by Scott B. » Fri May 11, 2018 12:44 pm

ScottDLS wrote: In the auction scenario this takes place all the time. Seller A advertises the gun on Gunbroker for sale. A bidder B wins the bid. B pays A, then provides instructions to get it to a FFL of B's choice. A gets paid by B. A transfers the gun to his dealer "Gunbroker FFL'" with instructions on sending it to B's FFL. There is no requirement to even provide B's name.
All FFLs provide the name of the buyer for the receiving FFL. When that doesn't happen it's a mistake.

FFLs that want keep their licenses only transfer guns to the listed buyer.

If you have doubts about that, ask your IOI.
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