Selling to a non LTC holder

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: Charles L. Cotton, carlson1

User avatar

Grundy1133
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1068
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Gainesville

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#46

Post by Grundy1133 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:30 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:24 pm
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:07 pm
carlson1 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:58 am
I just stated what the law in Texas requires.

We can require anything we want. If we want them to stand on their head then we can require it. Just don’t be surprised when no ones wants to stand on their head. :evil2:
I occasionally see guns for sale that look interesting. Then I will read the part where the seller requires the buyer to use an FFL, at the buyers expense, for a $200 gun. Or requires a FTF transaction when they live 200 miles from the nearest major city, and the seller refuses to meet in the middle, etc. I sometimes get curious about whether these guys actually manage to ever sell their guns.

But as you said, you can require anything you want, as either the seller or the buyer. If a business owner can require me to not be wearing underwear* in order to buy from them, they why would a private seller not be able to put any restrictions they want on a buyer?

* or shoes, or a gun, or a shirt, etc., etc.
When I sell on gun broker or texas gun broker, if the buyer is a resident of Texas and wanting to skip the FFL in a FTF, I am good with it. Like I said earlier, I have an issue with putting restrictions on a gun purchase that are beyond what the law requires. I have never ask for a DL in a FTF. That is just against my grain.

One can get or give a bill of sale(receipt) with no driver license, LTC, background checks, family verification or thumb prints. ;-)

I am with Carlson, comply with the law and no more or less.
i can see both sides of the coin... if i do a private sale to joe bob over here who then decides to shoot up a liquor store, when they run the gun it'll show that I bought it and to avoid confusion and trying to convince everyone that i sold him the gun based on the honor system, i'd rather have some sort of BoP or receipt or SOMETHING just to cover my butt. same with selling/buying a car/boat/trailer or anything that could come back to bite me in the rear.
Image
NRA Member

User avatar

Grundy1133
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1068
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Gainesville

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#47

Post by Grundy1133 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:36 pm

C-dub wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:09 pm

How does a BOS prove the buyer is not prohibited from owning a firearm? A DL can tell you their state of residency and age, but that’s it.
the BOS that was linked in this thread has the sentence "buyer acknowledges that he/she is legally able to purchase and own a firearm" etc etc... so if it turns out that they ARENT legally able to buy a gun they signed a legally binding agreement that they are able to legally purchase a firearm but lied. just one more way a BOS will cover your butt in case something goes down.
Image
NRA Member

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 7112
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#48

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:32 am

There is absolutely no reason to worry about "covering your butt" if one simply uses common sense and complies with the requirements of the law. Nothing more... nothing less.

I am beginning to believe some want tougher gun laws. But the problem is, these restrictions on private sales some are in favor of will do nothing to decrease gun crime.

But. I am 100% in favor of people instituting any additional restrictions on purchasing a gun from them they desire. I won't be buying or selling from you.
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com

User avatar

Liberty
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 5878
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Galveston
Contact:

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#49

Post by Liberty » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:25 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:32 am
There is absolutely no reason to worry about "covering your butt" if one simply uses common sense and complies with the requirements of the law. Nothing more... nothing less.

I am beginning to believe some want tougher gun laws. But the problem is, these restrictions on private sales some are in favor of will do nothing to decrease gun crime.

But. I am 100% in favor of people instituting any additional restrictions on purchasing a gun from them they desire. I won't be buying or selling from you.
No, I would require a bill of sale on just about anything of high value that I bought. A receipt with ID info gives me some assurance against buying from a thief or a crook. I would assume that folks that don't want to provide ID for a sale is up to no good. Whether its a gun a car or a fishing rod. I won't buy a gallon of milk without a receipt, why should I buy a hand gun from a stranger without BOS.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 24012
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#50

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:51 am

mrvmax wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:50 pm
carlson1 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 pm
You can sale to any person who is a Texas resident and as far as you know is not a felon. There is no law that puts you under any obligation to run a background or “check papers.”

If you want to go the second mile take them to a FFL and do a transfer. Short of that anything else is useless.
Agreed, i can understand the reluctance to sell or buy from a stranger but it’s so ironic that people who do not want 2A rights restricted by our government often restrict 2A rights beyond what the law requires when selling to individuals.
And I get why it is ironic, but I think it would be more accurate to say that the person who is requiring the bill of sale, or to see the other’s ID or LTC, is simply trying to protect themselves more than they are trying to restrict the other person’s rights. What is even more sad is that we live in a prosecutorial environment where buyers/sellers even feel the need to protect themselves that way. If there were not already so many restrictions on firearms ownership and transfers, private buyers/sellers might not feel so compelled to take such actions.

For my own part, I have done it both ways. I’ve had people volunteer to show me their LTC/CHL, and/or provide/ask for a bill of sale. When transacting with someone on this forum, I generally don’t worry about the sale.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


NNT
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#51

Post by NNT » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:52 am

I don't show ID for the same reasons I don't do transactions at my house.

1-I don't want strangers who know I have guns or valuable things to know where to come get them when I am not home.

2- giving a copy if my DL gives full name, address, birthday, dl#. A little online research and my identity is compromised...

Bigger chance if these two in my opinion than BATF knocking on my door.

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 7112
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#52

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:56 am

Liberty wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:25 am
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:32 am
There is absolutely no reason to worry about "covering your butt" if one simply uses common sense and complies with the requirements of the law. Nothing more... nothing less.

I am beginning to believe some want tougher gun laws. But the problem is, these restrictions on private sales some are in favor of will do nothing to decrease gun crime.

But. I am 100% in favor of people instituting any additional restrictions on purchasing a gun from them they desire. I won't be buying or selling from you.
No, I would require a bill of sale on just about anything of high value that I bought. A receipt with ID info gives me some assurance against buying from a thief or a crook. I would assume that folks that don't want to provide ID for a sale is up to no good. Whether its a gun a car or a fishing rod. I won't buy a gallon of milk without a receipt, why should I buy a hand gun from a stranger without BOS.
Do you require ID on that gallon of milk as well? :mrgreen: All kidding aside. I suppose if I spent my time around a lot of thieves and crooks, I too would require ID. Fortunately, the circles I run in tend to be a bit more honorable. :evil2:
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 7112
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#53

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 am

NNT wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:52 am
I don't show ID for the same reasons I don't do transactions at my house.

1-I don't want strangers who know I have guns or valuable things to know where to come get them when I am not home.

2- giving a copy if my DL gives full name, address, birthday, dl#. A little online research and my identity is compromised...

Bigger chance if these two in my opinion than BATF knocking on my door.
Not only that, you are also opening yourself up to identity theft by allowing someone to copy down your DL name and address. Best way is to do business with people you can trust. It is highly unlikely I will be selling a gun to an armed robber off the TexasChlForum.
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com


flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2208
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#54

Post by flechero » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 am

I'm surprised that each time this topic comes up it gets several pages of action... it's either a testimony to our increasing numbers or to our aging memories!!! :biggrinjester:


I will no longer buy with a BOS, for reasons listed earlier- if I want to be on the record, I will just buy new and get the assurances and warranties that accompany it. (save and except to some oddball screamin' deal)

User avatar

Liberty
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 5878
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Galveston
Contact:

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#55

Post by Liberty » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:56 am
Liberty wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:25 am
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:32 am
There is absolutely no reason to worry about "covering your butt" if one simply uses common sense and complies with the requirements of the law. Nothing more... nothing less.

I am beginning to believe some want tougher gun laws. But the problem is, these restrictions on private sales some are in favor of will do nothing to decrease gun crime.

But. I am 100% in favor of people instituting any additional restrictions on purchasing a gun from them they desire. I won't be buying or selling from you.
No, I would require a bill of sale on just about anything of high value that I bought. A receipt with ID info gives me some assurance against buying from a thief or a crook. I would assume that folks that don't want to provide ID for a sale is up to no good. Whether its a gun a car or a fishing rod. I won't buy a gallon of milk without a receipt, why should I buy a hand gun from a stranger without BOS.
Do you require ID on that gallon of milk as well? :mrgreen: All kidding aside. I suppose if I spent my time around a lot of thieves and crooks, I too would require ID. Fortunately, the circles I run in tend to be a bit more honorable. :evil2:
No, but I require a receipt. Just in case the milk turns up sour. I know where the store is and where to return it. If I bought a lawnmower from a stranger in a parking lot I would want a Bill of sale as well as an ID on who I'm dealing with.

The truth is though if I were to purchase a gun from some of the people here. I would feel pretty comfortable without worrying about it being a bad deal. or dealing with unscrupulous people. The fact is I don't buy many used guns I like new stuff, and most of the guns I see for sale here sells for pretty much the same price as brand new. Thats just me though. I don't like selling my old guns much either. Some people like bargains and collectables. Others are willing to take a chance on buying a defective piece of equipment for a bargain. I don't make judgement calls on people who can't be bothered with formalities, I just believe in certain business practices. I also don't associate with thieves and crooks, but have run into enough to be wary.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy


mrvmax
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:16 pm
Location: Friendswood
Contact:

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#56

Post by mrvmax » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:25 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:51 am
mrvmax wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:50 pm
carlson1 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 pm
You can sale to any person who is a Texas resident and as far as you know is not a felon. There is no law that puts you under any obligation to run a background or “check papers.”

If you want to go the second mile take them to a FFL and do a transfer. Short of that anything else is useless.
Agreed, i can understand the reluctance to sell or buy from a stranger but it’s so ironic that people who do not want 2A rights restricted by our government often restrict 2A rights beyond what the law requires when selling to individuals.
What is even more sad is that we live in a prosecutorial environment where buyers/sellers even feel the need to protect themselves that way.
My point really is that the need to protect oneself when buying and selling firearms to individuals is based on false information and I’m not sure where that comes from. Is it paranoia? Internet wives tales? I think people have an irrational fear of being held criminally liable for buying or selling a firearm used in a crime since I just don’t seem to find cases of this happening as it’s perceived. I could be way out in left field and just uninformed about it but I don’t recall reading about this happening and I spend a good portion of my life perusing numerous gun forums so I assume I would eventually run across an article on this happening. Now I could see this happening in other less gun friendly states but I just don’t see it happening in Texas as I see it portrayed in theoretical scenarios (I.e. I sold my gun to a stranger, it was used in a crime after I sold it so now I’m going to jail). Maybe Charles or someone more knowledgeable will correct me if my view is just from being misinformed. I think I’ve about exhausted my view on this so I’ll shut up now and see if anyone has some insight I have not seen before.

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 24012
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#57

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm

mrvmax wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:25 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:51 am
mrvmax wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:50 pm
carlson1 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 pm
You can sale to any person who is a Texas resident and as far as you know is not a felon. There is no law that puts you under any obligation to run a background or “check papers.”

If you want to go the second mile take them to a FFL and do a transfer. Short of that anything else is useless.
Agreed, i can understand the reluctance to sell or buy from a stranger but it’s so ironic that people who do not want 2A rights restricted by our government often restrict 2A rights beyond what the law requires when selling to individuals.
What is even more sad is that we live in a prosecutorial environment where buyers/sellers even feel the need to protect themselves that way.
My point really is that the need to protect oneself when buying and selling firearms to individuals is based on false information and I’m not sure where that comes from. Is it paranoia? Internet wives tales? I think people have an irrational fear of being held criminally liable for buying or selling a firearm used in a crime since I just don’t seem to find cases of this happening as it’s perceived. I could be way out in left field and just uninformed about it but I don’t recall reading about this happening and I spend a good portion of my life perusing numerous gun forums so I assume I would eventually run across an article on this happening. Now I could see this happening in other less gun friendly states but I just don’t see it happening in Texas as I see it portrayed in theoretical scenarios (I.e. I sold my gun to a stranger, it was used in a crime after I sold it so now I’m going to jail). Maybe Charles or someone more knowledgeable will correct me if my view is just from being misinformed. I think I’ve about exhausted my view on this so I’ll shut up now and see if anyone has some insight I have not seen before.
You’re probably right, in that the odds of actually needing to have protected yourself that way are fairly low. It’s not the odds though, it is the consequences if things go wrong.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 7112
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#58

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm

flechero wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 am
I'm surprised that each time this topic comes up it gets several pages of action... it's either a testimony to our increasing numbers or to our aging memories!!! :biggrinjester:


I will no longer buy with a BOS, for reasons listed earlier- if I want to be on the record, I will just buy new and get the assurances and warranties that accompany it. (save and except to some oddball screamin' deal)
My memory is not what it use to be but I do remember that the answers and replies are all consistant. :biggrinjester: Maybe the next time this comes up we should just pull up one of the old threads and say... right here. :smilelol5:
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 7112
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#59

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:42 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
mrvmax wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:25 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:51 am
mrvmax wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:50 pm
carlson1 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 pm
You can sale to any person who is a Texas resident and as far as you know is not a felon. There is no law that puts you under any obligation to run a background or “check papers.”

If you want to go the second mile take them to a FFL and do a transfer. Short of that anything else is useless.
Agreed, i can understand the reluctance to sell or buy from a stranger but it’s so ironic that people who do not want 2A rights restricted by our government often restrict 2A rights beyond what the law requires when selling to individuals.
What is even more sad is that we live in a prosecutorial environment where buyers/sellers even feel the need to protect themselves that way.
My point really is that the need to protect oneself when buying and selling firearms to individuals is based on false information and I’m not sure where that comes from. Is it paranoia? Internet wives tales? I think people have an irrational fear of being held criminally liable for buying or selling a firearm used in a crime since I just don’t seem to find cases of this happening as it’s perceived. I could be way out in left field and just uninformed about it but I don’t recall reading about this happening and I spend a good portion of my life perusing numerous gun forums so I assume I would eventually run across an article on this happening. Now I could see this happening in other less gun friendly states but I just don’t see it happening in Texas as I see it portrayed in theoretical scenarios (I.e. I sold my gun to a stranger, it was used in a crime after I sold it so now I’m going to jail). Maybe Charles or someone more knowledgeable will correct me if my view is just from being misinformed. I think I’ve about exhausted my view on this so I’ll shut up now and see if anyone has some insight I have not seen before.
You’re probably right, in that the odds of actually needing to have protected yourself that way are fairly low. It’s not the odds though, it is the consequences if things go wrong.
There really are none for the seller if one simply follows the law. At most the buyer finds out he bought a stolen gun in some weird way and must forfeit the gun.
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com

User avatar

spectre
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Selling to a non LTC holder

#60

Post by spectre » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:44 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 am
NNT wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:52 am
I don't show ID for the same reasons I don't do transactions at my house.

1-I don't want strangers who know I have guns or valuable things to know where to come get them when I am not home.

2- giving a copy if my DL gives full name, address, birthday, dl#. A little online research and my identity is compromised...

Bigger chance if these two in my opinion than BATF knocking on my door.
Not only that, you are also opening yourself up to identity theft by allowing someone to copy down your DL name and address.
:iagree:

The odds of that are a lot higher than the gun being used in a crime and being left at the scene for the cops to find and the gun left at the scene not having the actual criminal's fingerprints on it.
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society,
over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it
and a moral code that glorifies it. - Frédéric Bastiat

Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”