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Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:22 pm
by NJ_Expat
C-dub wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:27 pm
NJ_Expat wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:54 am
Without an LTC, you can have a loaded handgun in your vehicle if:
-The gun is NOT on your person FALSE
-The gun is concealed from view with all four of the vehicle's doors open FALSE - no open door requirement

Therefore, keeping the gun in the glove box or a bag is totally legal. Even keeping it on the passenger seat with a rag over it is technically legal (not recommended, obviously).

You cannot get out of your vehicle with a concealed handgun on your person. TRUE - except if you are coming to or from your residence or place of business

I understand the logic of "judged by 12, not carried by 6" in the defense of your family, but ending up in the county jail or state prison with a sh*tload of fines, legal fees, and a criminal record isn't exactly doing a service to your family, either. Be smart. Spend the money (it's chump change) and get your LTC. Even though the course is required, the education you receive is absolutely crucial and invaluable.
Colored text added by me. I have this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something that is going to come back and bite me, but I can't figure it out yet.
If I'm indeed incorrect, regarding the possession of a loaded handgun in a vehicle, then I apologize. I'm reiterating what was explained to me by the instructor in my LTC course. I have read that "Texas generally prohibits intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carrying a handgun in plain view in a motor vehicle or watercraft, except by handgun license holders carrying the handgun in a shoulder or belt holster." - http://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-v ... -in-texas/

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:35 pm
by WildRose
NJ_Expat wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:22 pm
C-dub wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:27 pm
NJ_Expat wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:54 am
Without an LTC, you can have a loaded handgun in your vehicle if:
-The gun is NOT on your person FALSE
-The gun is concealed from view with all four of the vehicle's doors open FALSE - no open door requirement

Therefore, keeping the gun in the glove box or a bag is totally legal. Even keeping it on the passenger seat with a rag over it is technically legal (not recommended, obviously).

You cannot get out of your vehicle with a concealed handgun on your person. TRUE - except if you are coming to or from your residence or place of business

I understand the logic of "judged by 12, not carried by 6" in the defense of your family, but ending up in the county jail or state prison with a sh*tload of fines, legal fees, and a criminal record isn't exactly doing a service to your family, either. Be smart. Spend the money (it's chump change) and get your LTC. Even though the course is required, the education you receive is absolutely crucial and invaluable.
Colored text added by me. I have this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something that is going to come back and bite me, but I can't figure it out yet.
If I'm indeed incorrect, regarding the possession of a loaded handgun in a vehicle, then I apologize. I'm reiterating what was explained to me by the instructor in my LTC course. I have read that "Texas generally prohibits intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carrying a handgun in plain view in a motor vehicle or watercraft, except by handgun license holders carrying the handgun in a shoulder or belt holster." - http://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-v ... -in-texas/
None of us is perfect and if this site serves a good purpose at all it is that it gives us all a chance to learn.

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:32 pm
by apostate
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Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:34 am
by WildRose
apostate wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:32 pm
I don't consider Giffords a credible source for anything related to firearms. YMMV
Can you show the quoted statement from their site to be false?

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:04 am
by C-dub
NJ_Expat wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:22 pm
C-dub wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:27 pm
NJ_Expat wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:54 am
Without an LTC, you can have a loaded handgun in your vehicle if:
-The gun is NOT on your person FALSE
-The gun is concealed from view with all four of the vehicle's doors open FALSE - no open door requirement

Therefore, keeping the gun in the glove box or a bag is totally legal. Even keeping it on the passenger seat with a rag over it is technically legal (not recommended, obviously).

You cannot get out of your vehicle with a concealed handgun on your person. TRUE - except if you are coming to or from your residence or place of business

I understand the logic of "judged by 12, not carried by 6" in the defense of your family, but ending up in the county jail or state prison with a sh*tload of fines, legal fees, and a criminal record isn't exactly doing a service to your family, either. Be smart. Spend the money (it's chump change) and get your LTC. Even though the course is required, the education you receive is absolutely crucial and invaluable.
Colored text added by me. I have this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something that is going to come back and bite me, but I can't figure it out yet.
If I'm indeed incorrect, regarding the possession of a loaded handgun in a vehicle, then I apologize. I'm reiterating what was explained to me by the instructor in my LTC course. I have read that "Texas generally prohibits intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carrying a handgun in plain view in a motor vehicle or watercraft, except by handgun license holders carrying the handgun in a shoulder or belt holster." - http://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-v ... -in-texas/
Surprisingly, that is a correct statement from them. ;-)

The first and third item you mentioned are kind of at odds with each other. A person without an LTC may not legally carry a handgun openly on their person, but may carry it concealed. That fits with what Giffords' group stated. Although, I suppose it would get tiresome having to disarm and rearm every time one got in and out of their vehicle and would also increase their chances of forgetting and exiting without having disarmed creating a risky legal situation.

Your third item regarding exiting your vehicle is true under most circumstances, but wouldn't be possible unless that person were CCing, which is the part that is at odds with your first statement.

Anyway, your second statement is only incorrect because there is no mention of having to be out of view with the doors open. That may be a good way of making sure one is in compliance, but its not specifically worded that way.

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:06 am
by NJ_Expat
Upon further review, it appears that I WAS incorrect regarding having a handgun in a vehicle without an LTC. The gun does need to be concealed from view, but you are allowed to have it on your person as long as you're in the vehicle. My sincerest apologies. Thank you for the clarification.

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:08 am
by oljames3
NJ_Expat wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:06 am
Upon further review, it appears that I WAS incorrect regarding having a handgun in a vehicle without an LTC. The gun does need to be concealed from view, but you are allowed to have it on your person as long as you're in the vehicle. My sincerest apologies. Thank you for the clarification.
No worries. Texas law, in general, is confusing. Especially the way we append changes to the law to the existing law rather than re-writing the whole thing. Participation in this forum is a great way to become acquainted with the letter, the spirit, and the application of Texas gun law.

And congrats on your successful escape! :biggrinjester:

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:29 am
by Winston
The way I interpreted the law was that it was legal for me to carry it on my person concealed and without a licence only if:

You're at home or on your property. Leaving your home and going directly into your vehicle. Inside your vehicle. Leaving your vehicle to go directly into your business or property under your control. Leaving your business or property you control to go directly to your vehicle. And finally leaving your vehicle to go back into your home or property. Other than that it's illegal to carry your gun on you. What confused me was why it's illegal to pump gas with a gun on your person? You're still at your vehicle and not going inside anywhere. Your only exiting your vehicle to pump gas and getting directly back in your vehicle to leave. So in many ways this doesn't make sense. Which is why I thought it was still legal to have it on my person. I wasn't going into the gas station with it and I wasn't going anywhere else with it. Basically I stood right next to my vehicle the whole time and my vehicle is my property. Then I got back in my vehicle and left. And since open carry was legalized I also thought you didn't have to conceal your gun anymore when driving. I thought open carrying a pistol would be legal but now I see that only applies to licensed carriers. These laws are confusing and need to be written with more details.

Re: Carry rules for non CHL citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:51 am
by C-dub
Winston wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:29 am
The way I interpreted the law was that it was legal for me to carry it on my person concealed and without a licence only if:

You're at home or on your property. Leaving your home and going directly into your vehicle. Inside your vehicle. Leaving your vehicle to go directly into your business or property under your control. Leaving your business or property you control to go directly to your vehicle. And finally leaving your vehicle to go back into your home or property. Other than that it's illegal to carry your gun on you. What confused me was why it's illegal to pump gas with a gun on your person? You're still at your vehicle and not going inside anywhere. Your only exiting your vehicle to pump gas and getting directly back in your vehicle to leave. So in many ways this doesn't make sense. Which is why I thought it was still legal to have it on my person. I wasn't going into the gas station with it and I wasn't going anywhere else with it. Basically I stood right next to my vehicle the whole time and my vehicle is my property. Then I got back in my vehicle and left. And since open carry was legalized I also thought you didn't have to conceal your gun anymore when driving. I thought open carrying a pistol would be legal but now I see that only applies to licensed carriers. These laws are confusing and need to be written with more details.
There's always gotta be a line somewhere. We may not always like or agree with where that line is drawn, but it's still there until it can be moved.

The difference between inside and outside of a vehicle may only be a couple of feet, but there is a big distinction legally. Most laws are fairly plainly written, but then people muddle them all up trying to push the definitions. That last part isn't directed at you, but rather people in general. Most laws tell us what we can't do and not what we can and there lies the problem. They can't list everything so they end up with generalities and simple language and let the courts wade through the minutia when problems arise with interpretations and disagreements of the language.

Some times its a mess, but that's also generally why us LTCs are more law abiding than even LEOs. We don't like to push things to the limits and prefer to stay out of trouble and fly under the radar. In my own opinion, that's also why must of us that have been carrying concealed for so long tend to resist OC. It seems like the newer one is to carrying the more likely they are to OC.