"Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

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AF-Odin
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"Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#1

Post by AF-Odin » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:28 pm

Charles (and any others who wish to comment), would like your thought regarding a case I just heard about in Waco. Seems an individual with a valid LTC was on a motorcycle carrying a handgun in a holster. Said individual was also a member of the Bandidos Motorcycle Club which has been deemed a Criminal Motorcycle Gang by law enforcement. He was stopped, arrested and charged with illegally carrying a handgun and case has gone to trial. Defense apparently wanted to use the fact that the individual had a validly issued LTC and had no other offenses before or since issue to defend against the charge. Judge apparently initially ruled that the possession of an LTC could not be introduced as evidence. Defense attorney did bring it up and from what I heard, the case must now go to a higher court.

Reason I am asking is that in teaching LTC, one of the topics is carrying without a license where we discuss the fact that you may carry in/on your motor vehicle (out of sight) without a license as long as you are "not a member of a criminal street gang" or engaged any violation other than a class C misdemeanor. Many students have asked who determines what is and is not a criminal street gang.

For the individual in this case, would this information not have shown up on his LTC background check or is simply joining the wrong motorcycle club in and of itself a criminal act? :tiphat:
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#2

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm

Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#3

Post by ScottDLS » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:32 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
I don’t see anything in the LTC qualifications that mentions criminal street gangs. If the person had a LTC while he was openly carrying in a belt holster, then he should not be successful prosecuted for 46.02 unlawful carry of a weapon.
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#4

Post by joe817 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:42 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
The DPS issues "Threat Assessments" annually and publishes it.

"Texas Gang Threat Assessment
A State Intelligence Estimate
Produced by the Texas Joint Crime Information Center
Intelligence & Counterterrorism Division
Texas Department of Public Safety
In collaboration with federal, state, and local law enforcement and criminal justice agencies"

http://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staff ... 201707.pdf

It makes for interesting reading.
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#5

Post by sykoball_01 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:09 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
Penal Code 71.01 defines a criminal street gang as :

(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#6

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:24 pm

joe817 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:42 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
The DPS issues "Threat Assessments" annually and publishes it.

"Texas Gang Threat Assessment
A State Intelligence Estimate
Produced by the Texas Joint Crime Information Center
Intelligence & Counterterrorism Division
Texas Department of Public Safety
In collaboration with federal, state, and local law enforcement and criminal justice agencies"

http://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staff ... 201707.pdf

It makes for interesting reading.
Wow! That was interesting. I had no idea how many violent gang members we had in Texas. The numbers are eye opening. Thanks for the link.

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#7

Post by DocV » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:32 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
I don’t see anything in the LTC qualifications that mentions criminal street gangs. If the person had a LTC while he was openly carrying in a belt holster, then he should not be successful prosecuted for 46.02 unlawful carry of a weapon.
Interesting. You are the lawyer. I'm merely confused. I do not see being a member of a criminal street gang specifically disqualifying someone for a LTC; but,what about PC 46.02 a-1.2.C? :headscratch
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#8

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:25 am

DocV wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 pm
ScottDLS wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:32 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
I don’t see anything in the LTC qualifications that mentions criminal street gangs. If the person had a LTC while he was openly carrying in a belt holster, then he should not be successful prosecuted for 46.02 unlawful carry of a weapon.
Interesting. You are the lawyer. I'm merely confused. I do not see being a member of a criminal street gang specifically disqualifying someone for a LTC; but,what about PC 46.02 a-1.2.C? :headscratch
I did not know it either. I somehow read it in the OP.
Reason I am asking is that in teaching LTC, one of the topics is carrying without a license where we discuss the fact that you may carry in/on your motor vehicle (out of sight) without a license as long as you are "not a member of a criminal street gang" or engaged any violation other than a class C misdemeanor. Many students have asked who determines what is and is not a criminal street gang.
I see now that maybe he was referring to carrying in a vehicle only? I dunno. That was why I started out by saying... "Based on the rule you posted". I did not feel compelled to look it up.

But now I do feel compelled to look up the section DocV mentioned and am curious how having an LTC affects this section. I don't know if having a LTC could be used as a defense to prosecution under this section of the law? Maybe that is why the judge said having an LTC could not be brought up?
(a-1)A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the persons control at any time in which:
(1)the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2)the person is:
(A)engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B)prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C)a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#9

Post by TxRVer » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:10 am

In my mind, carrying with a LTC while wearing the colors of a criminal MC, is equivalent to carrying with a LTC while robbing a 7 Eleven.
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#10

Post by Rob72 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:20 am

TxRVer wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:10 am
In my mind, carrying with a LTC while wearing the colors of a criminal MC, is equivalent to carrying with a LTC while robbing a 7 Eleven.
Or walking around to the local junior high schools wearing a t-shirt with, "Epstein Rules!", emblazoned on it, and being surprised by being detained for questioning.

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#11

Post by AF-Odin » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:21 am

Correct, the reason I am asking is the section in GC 411 subchapter H regarding carrying in a motor vehicle without a LTC has Criminal Street Gang as a defined in 71.01 as a disqualifier, but does NOT really address if the individual has an LTC. Would the normal background check for issue of an LTC discover whether or not some one is a member of a 71.01 defined group? I don't think so as I cannot recall that question being asked on the application.

Will definitely be an interesting case to watch specifically for 1st Amendment rights regarding freedom of association as this individual had no criminal record.
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#12

Post by Rob72 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:57 am

AF-Odin wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:21 am

Will definitely be an interesting case to watch specifically for 1st Amendment rights regarding freedom of association as this individual had no criminal record.
I suspect that Prosecutors were able to collect specific Articles of Confederation, and, as members have to pledge to follow those, they are effectively committing a felony (-ies) with the pledge (i.e., agreeing to support and conceal felony activities, to further the business of a criminal enterprise, to conceal and support human-trafficking, etc.,). It is well established that the 1st does not protect criminal association (e.g., it is unlawful for felons to associate after release).

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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#13

Post by E.Marquez » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:01 am

AF-Odin wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:21 am
Correct, the reason I am asking is the section in GC 411 subchapter H regarding carrying in a motor vehicle without a LTC has Criminal Street Gang as a defined in 71.01 as a disqualifier, but does NOT really address if the individual has an LTC. Would the normal background check for issue of an LTC discover whether or not some one is a member of a 71.01 defined group? I don't think so as I cannot recall that question being asked on the application.

Will definitely be an interesting case to watch specifically for 1st Amendment rights regarding freedom of association as this individual had no criminal record.
This debate has come up many times..If you have an LTC and are in a motor vehicle which set of rules .restrictions and laws apply?
As its been pointed out, nothing governing LTC seems to have a restriction reference "Criminal Street Gang " As this person was charged anyway, the ADA must be charging him under rules according to MPA..thus, this DA at least is implying MPA is applicable while in a vehicle, not LTC and now my head hurts.....
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#14

Post by KC5AV » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 am

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(2) the person is:
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

Sec. 71.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter,
(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.
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Re: "Criminal Motorcycle Gang" and LTC

#15

Post by powerboatr » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:06 pm

joe817 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:42 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:38 pm
Based on the rule you posted, I am thinking he is ineligible for a LTC. I am curious now, how do the authorities determine whether or not a group of people are considered a criminal street gang. The obvious groups are a no brainer. But what about the smaller less known groups? How many members does it take to be considered a "gang"?
The DPS issues "Threat Assessments" annually and publishes it.

"Texas Gang Threat Assessment
A State Intelligence Estimate
Produced by the Texas Joint Crime Information Center
Intelligence & Counterterrorism Division
Texas Department of Public Safety
In collaboration with federal, state, and local law enforcement and criminal justice agencies"

http://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staff ... 201707.pdf

It makes for interesting reading.

x2 thanks for the link. I had no idea the number of gangs in texas. I knew of the ones in rio grande valley,
very good read, we all should read it a few times
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