Church Meeting on CHL Topics

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imkopaka
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Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#1

Post by imkopaka » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:09 pm

In response to the church shooting last week, my church put out a text message to the mailing list asking all LTC holders to hang back after service this Sunday. I'm eager to see what they have to say - the pastor is LTC and our unofficial security team contains at least 1 active LEO, so I know it's not going to be anti-gun. I wonder if they plan on formalizing the security team and discussing tactics and plans of action? Will update next week.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#2

Post by 2farnorth » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:03 pm

I assume that you will know your congregation, but I would ask to see carry IDs of each participant. Also ask the training background of each. Of course you may have some non carrying deacons or such that will want to be involved in the procedures and decision making. If you have a peace officer in the group even better.

The whole congregation does not need to know who participates or what procedures you set in place. Remember that many will look at the security team members and will identify a threat to an assailant if they are known. The main body of the congregation should told that when stuff-h-t-f initially they are to duck down and stay out of the way. The video from White Settlement showed many ducking down automatically, but some were riveted to their seats. The guy closest to the camera in one view actually stood up to see better.

Plan for panic and loved ones trying to get to the injured.

Hopefully you never need to use the procedures. Stay safe.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#3

Post by ELB » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:12 pm

Google "church security plan" and there are loads of results. Some are probably better resources than others.

A couple things that struck me from the WSCC vid, with the caveat that the camera may not have picked up everything:

1. All the armed members I could see converged on the downed killer. Not bad idea for somebody to back up the primary (jack Wilson), but others should be looking outward, securing the entrances, looking for additional threats.

2. I didn't see any evidence of medics or medical kits attending to the downed church members (again, I may have missed it, was hard to tell for sure). Not only should some folks be trained and have resources on hand for immediate first aid, there needs to be plans and procedures for evacuating the wounded to serious help. Someone to call 911 and give a coherent patient report about the victim(s).

Someone shot in the chest with a shot gun but not dead yet needs a surgeon ASAP, there's not so much first responders or even paramedics can do for him. There are studies that indicate that the "usual" medical response of calling an ambulance only delays getting people who need a surgeon under the knife. For example, that church, being in the DFW area, may very well have had a good trauma center nearby. For serious GSW it might be better to bundle the victim into somebody's back seat and take him straight to the emergency department of the closest trauma center (not just any hospital) rather than wait for an ambulance. Some cities have this policy for their police: if there's a serious trauma, the on-scene cops can make the decision use their cars to transport the victim immediately instead of waiting on ambulances. Those of us farther out in the sticks, like me, there is no trauma center close enough that even with an ambulance on site we could get to a trauma center quick enough -- as soon as we hear of a serious trauma we alert the sheriff's dispatch to contact helicopter service, and mark out a landing spot. My VFD has predetermined landing sites in various parts of our district, and we and the sheriff's office have the GPS coordinates for them. A little country church may want to do the same.

Etc. A lot to think about, and not just about "the moment of truth."
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#4

Post by imkopaka » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:30 pm

ELB wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:12 pm
Google "church security plan" and there are loads of results. Some are probably better resources than others.

A couple things that struck me from the WSCC vid, with the caveat that the camera may not have picked up everything:

1. All the armed members I could see converged on the downed killer. Not bad idea for somebody to back up the primary (jack Wilson), but others should be looking outward, securing the entrances, looking for additional threats.

2. I didn't see any evidence of medics or medical kits attending to the downed church members (again, I may have missed it, was hard to tell for sure). Not only should some folks be trained and have resources on hand for immediate first aid, there needs to be plans and procedures for evacuating the wounded to serious help. Someone to call 911 and give a coherent patient report about the victim(s).

Someone shot in the chest with a shot gun but not dead yet needs a surgeon ASAP, there's not so much first responders or even paramedics can do for him. There are studies that indicate that the "usual" medical response of calling an ambulance only delays getting people who need a surgeon under the knife. For example, that church, being in the DFW area, may very well have had a good trauma center nearby. For serious GSW it might be better to bundle the victim into somebody's back seat and take him straight to the emergency department of the closest trauma center (not just any hospital) rather than wait for an ambulance. Some cities have this policy for their police: if there's a serious trauma, the on-scene cops can make the decision use their cars to transport the victim immediately instead of waiting on ambulances. Those of us farther out in the sticks, like me, there is no trauma center close enough that even with an ambulance on site we could get to a trauma center quick enough -- as soon as we hear of a serious trauma we alert the sheriff's dispatch to contact helicopter service, and mark out a landing spot. My VFD has predetermined landing sites in various parts of our district, and we and the sheriff's office have the GPS coordinates for them. A little country church may want to do the same.

Etc. A lot to think about, and not just about "the moment of truth."
That is REALLY good info - I'll definitely be sharing some of that!
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#5

Post by EP45 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:39 pm

Sounds like a good idea. Again, love this forum w/ all the great information.

The errors I have seen in our security team:
1. 30.06 and 30.07 signs on both entrances. I have a letter from clergy, assuming security team has some sort of documentation. I think it is confusing to give effective notice and effective consent at the same time. When I brought up that security team not there at all times, “well we cannot protect individuals at all times”.

The rationale for this decision is that they do not want chaos during an incident (which did not appear to occur at the White Settlement shooting). Also realize that individuals will be in your place of worship w/ a gun that are not part of the security team. Off-duty law enforcement, criminals, and individuals who decide they are not complying w/ 30.06/30.07 signs.
2. Inaccurate legal or self-defense information.
I am not LE, ex-military, and need to vastly improve my self-defense and gun skills. I am not part of the security team and to the best of my knowledge the current team has 2 ex-military members, 1-2 CHL instructors, and previously had a federal law enforcement officer. Some of the things that I have heard were that it has been illegal to carry in churches until 9/1/19 (from LTC instructors).
3. Unsure if our “security” vehicle has “security” still written on it; previously and pointed out law which security team basically made excuses for having “security” on the vehicle. My son is a security guard and mentioned part of the reasoning for no security was the prevention of taking away jobs from licensed security. He also reports this is much more enforced in areas e.g. Lubbock. Also unsure what penalty for “security” for non-licensed security is (i.e. sometimes Texas law is great at declaring something illegal but horrible at penalizing/enforcing).
4. I liked the John Correia, Active Self Protection. Basically, chastised to practice more, but also trauma kits, first aid kits, stop the bleed classes. Probably some general instruction for congregation as a whole as mentioned by 2farnorth. I have never heard any instructions given for any type of events.

I of course think the security team should be made up of sound minded individuals but believe everyone in America should have the right to bear arms, including in church, unless they commit an offense that shows them not responsible to bear arms (felons are an example).

At the same time, I want the security team to have the ability to be covert for many potential situations and I would like to not be shot if I legitimately pull out a weapon in a defensive situation.

Good luck and prayers, Thanks for sharing.


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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#6

Post by skeathley » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:48 pm

It has been legal to carry in a church for 21 years, unless the church was posted.

:rules:
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#7

Post by Grayling813 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:58 pm

This may be of interest.
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/

Upcoming seminars in Texas:
Ft. Worth Sunday afternoon January 26 Cost: Free
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... -26-sunday

Olney (south of Wichita Falls) Saturday February 8 Cost: Free
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... ary-8-2020

Sutherland Springs Mon-Tue April 20-21 Cost: $125.00
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... -2021-2020
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#8

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:17 pm

Grayling813 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:58 pm
This may be of interest.
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/

Upcoming seminars in Texas:
Ft. Worth Sunday afternoon January 26 Cost: Free
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... -26-sunday

Olney (south of Wichita Falls) Saturday February 8 Cost: Free
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... ary-8-2020

Sutherland Springs Mon-Tue April 20-21 Cost: $125.00
https://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/ ... -2021-2020
Shoot (pun intended. :mrgreen: ), I have to be in all three of our services on 1/26, so I can’t attend that one. maybe I can make the one in Olney in February.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#9

Post by chasfm11 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:17 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:17 pm

Shoot (pun intended. :mrgreen: ), I have to be in all three of our services on 1/26, so I can’t attend that one. maybe I can make the one in Olney in February.
I'm planning to go to Olney and will pre-register as suggested. Travel for me appears to be about two plus hours, 120 miles. Perhaps we can meet somewhere and ride together if you decide to go.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#10

Post by Keith B » Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:38 am

skeathley wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:48 pm
It has been legal to carry in a church for 21 years, unless the church was posted.

:rules:
But it hasn’t been legal to use LTC holders as official security officers. That changed in September to allow it.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#11

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:16 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:17 am
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:17 pm

Shoot (pun intended. :mrgreen: ), I have to be in all three of our services on 1/26, so I can’t attend that one. maybe I can make the one in Olney in February.
I'm planning to go to Olney and will pre-register as suggested. Travel for me appears to be about two plus hours, 120 miles. Perhaps we can meet somewhere and ride together if you decide to go.
Sounds like a plan. I’ll phone you when I know if I can make it. (Still waiting for my February service schedule to come out.)
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#12

Post by oljames3 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:42 pm

Keith B wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:38 am
skeathley wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:48 pm
It has been legal to carry in a church for 21 years, unless the church was posted.

:rules:
But it hasn’t been legal to use LTC holders as official security officers. That changed in September to allow it.
No. The 85th legislature changed the restriction in the Occupations Code in 2017.
Sec. 1702.333. PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP; CERTAIN VOLUNTEERS.
(a) In this section, "volunteer security services" means services or activities that are:
(1) regulated under this chapter; and
(2) provided without compensation or remuneration.
(b) This chapter does not apply to a person who is providing
volunteer security services on the premises of a church, synagogue,
or other established place of religious worship.
(c) While providing volunteer security services under
Subsection (b), a person may not wear a uniform or badge that:
(1) contains the word "security"; or
(2) gives the person the appearance of being a peace
officer, personal protection officer, or security officer.
Added by Acts 2017, 85th Leg., R.S., Ch. 967 (S.B. 2065), Sec. 11.001,
eff. September 1, 2017.
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... NSCODE.pdf
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EP45
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#13

Post by EP45 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:34 pm

I have been taking my gun to church since about 2003, never part of the security team.

Realize that 2017 law was passed for volunteer security teams in churches with the thinking of emphasis on using LTC.

Some other thoughts, there are official security resources. You can hire an official security company, you can get your security team official/meeting state guidelines. Went to one of the big churches in DFW about 4-5 years ago and they had individuals open carrying with security badges. We have also used off-duty police officers.

Some of the things I’ve seen:
1. Our current security team members in the parking lot on their phone while supposed to be watching the lot, i.e. viewing a football game, distracted. They also use inner and outer cameras.
2. I saw similar with off-duty sheriff at the movie theater on his phone.
3. During a recent harvest festival fair, we had 2 off-duty police officers that I saw never more than 5 feet apart. Harvest festival was primarily in the parking lot, there was a puppet show in the building that was posted 30.06 and 30.07. I suspect not many members carrying during the puppet show; I was.

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#14

Post by iratollah » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:20 am

Story in the Houston Comical today about churches getting serious about security mentioned an organization, "National Organization of Church Security and Safety Management". What caught my eye is "When a volunteer is certified by the group, that person provides security and the church pays the organization a $11.20 hourly fee to absorb all liability for the actions of the trainee".

NOTE: I've no experience with this organization, have no affiliation, just sharing info that may be helpful .
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#15

Post by Vol Texan » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:50 am

iratollah wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:20 am
Story in the Houston Comical today about churches getting serious about security mentioned an organization, "National Organization of Church Security and Safety Management". What caught my eye is "When a volunteer is certified by the group, that person provides security and the church pays the organization a $11.20 hourly fee to absorb all liability for the actions of the trainee".

NOTE: I've no experience with this organization, have no affiliation, just sharing info that may be helpful .
Here's a link to that article:
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/h ... 948858.php
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