Church Meeting on CHL Topics

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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jmorris
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#31

Post by jmorris » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:20 am

Liberty wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:34 am
The decision on whether to join a church safety team is a lot more than just "Am I willing to take another life?" I think the biggest doubt for most toters might be of actual training. Most of us understand that we lack the skills that are necessary to work as an efficient team. Training involves not only time and energy but constantly reassessing the willingness to take a life.


The biggest issue that I would have with joining such a team is that it is a big distraction from why we attend church in the first place. Focusing on the sermon, and prayers, or potential threats within the congregation.
We have three services. Team members usually work one and attend another.
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much is about perspective

#32

Post by flechero » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:37 am

imkopaka wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:35 am
I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make.
While true to an extent, you can influence that down significantly. There is a HUGE distinction in civilian life between just killing someone and a saving a life. Train the latter and the former becomes a much smaller issue... that is mostly dealt with after the fact.

If you asked the average person, "right now, could you kill someone?" Vs. asking the average person "right now, could you intervene to save an innocent life?" I think you will see the ratio of no's to yes will flip. (and the hesitation and qualifiers come down)

imkopaka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:31 pm
They might carry because they're fairly confident they could shoot someone actively attacking them....

...it's possible they don't trust themselves to be able to shoot accurately enough to hit someone from across a crowded room.
I think this is a common insecurity but the key is that it's something you can train them to overcome. It will take time and quality instruction.

Good on you for being a proactive and concerned for the congregation! :tiphat:

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Re: much is about perspective

#33

Post by WildBill » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:11 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:35 am
I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make.
I don't remember his exact quote, but my CHL instructor Charles Cotton, emphasized that you needed to
make that decision [whether or not you will use deadly force] before you get into that situation.
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Re: much is about perspective

#34

Post by oljames3 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:56 pm

WildBill wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:11 pm
imkopaka wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:35 am
I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make.
I don't remember his exact quote, but my CHL instructor Charles Cotton, emphasized that you needed to
make that decision [whether or not you will use deadly force] before you get into that situation.
:iagree:
As I said in an earlier post:
Agreed. When the evil threat presents, we will likely not have time for soul searching. I made the decision that I could kill another human in September of 1973, at Ft Leonard Wood, MO, under the gentle guidance of SFC Austin and SGT Jett. Most civilians do not get to benefit from such efficient education.

We need to know, right now, whether our self-defense firearm is a tool or a woobie.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#35

Post by oljames3 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:05 pm

Keith B wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:38 am
skeathley wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:48 pm
It has been legal to carry in a church for 21 years, unless the church was posted.

:rules:
But it hasn’t been legal to use LTC holders as official security officers. That changed in September to allow it.
According to the Texas Occupations Code, church volunteer individuals and teams cannot identify themselves as "security."
Sec. 1702.333. PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP; CERTAIN VOLUNTEERS.
(a) In this section, "volunteer security services" means services or
activities that are:
(1) regulated under this chapter; and
(2) provided without compensation or remuneration.
(b) This chapter does not apply to a person who is providing
volunteer security services on the premises of a church, synagogue,
or other established place of religious worship.
(c) While providing volunteer security services under
Subsection (b), a person may not wear a uniform or badge that:
(1) contains the word "security"; or
(2) gives the person the appearance of being a peace
officer, personal protection officer, or security officer.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#36

Post by oljames3 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:12 pm

imkopaka wrote:
I agree - however without making that decision all the training is moot. I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make. Without that choice the training amounts to nothing. I am actually planning some extensive training on different things - target shooting and marksmanship fundamentals, weapon care and maintenance, LTC laws and best practice, scenario drills, adrenaline drills, first aid and CPR, evac routes and mass casualty drills, etc.
Perhaps one cannot train another to be able to take a human life in just one day. However, I am certain that you remember USMC Boot Camp at least as fondly as I remember Army Basic Combat Training. Since 1776, our respective alma maters have been refining the process of converting naive civilians into willing killers. Under strict authority, of course.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#37

Post by SewTexas » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm

when my kids were younger, they are are young adults now and not with me all the time, I got into a conversation with another homeschooling mom about CHLs and such....she made a couple of remarks along the lines of "I could never a life" and "ew, guns....". I replied along the lines of "If a situation comes down to my kid's life or a bad guy's, there's no question what I'll do" and..."ok, if we're at park day, and a bad guy comes along, I won't protect your kid, I'll take care of mine."

yes, I was young and snarky, now I'm older and snarkier.....
~Tracy
Gun control is what you talk about when you don't want to talk about the truth ~ Colion Noir

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#38

Post by WildBill » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:44 pm

SewTexas wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm
when my kids were younger, they are are young adults now and not with me all the time, I got into a conversation with another homeschooling mom about CHLs and such....she made a couple of remarks along the lines of "I could never a life" and "ew, guns....". I replied along the lines of "If a situation comes down to my kid's life or a bad guy's, there's no question what I'll do" and..."ok, if we're at park day, and a bad guy comes along, I won't protect your kid, I'll take care of mine."

yes, I was young and snarky, now I'm older and snarkier.....
I remember having a similar conversation in college with a friend who stated that he would not shoot someone who was trying to kill his wife. He was not married at the time, but sometimes I wonder if he changed his mind after getting married [going on 40 years now] and having a daughter. I guess I could ask him.
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#39

Post by Liberty » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:22 am

The issue of Violence was a difficult one as a Christian teen growing up in the late 60s. I believed then as I do now that it is often best to turn the other cheek. Through prayer and some helpful guidance from others. I came to a position I was comfortable with. That it is a good to defend ones people in war, to defend oneself, one's family, one's neighbors.

It was then that I decided it would be alright to join the Army, that it is not a sin to kill to defend what is good. If we look to God for guidence and really listen he will help us make our choices in life.
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"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#40

Post by jmorris » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:02 am

SewTexas wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm
when my kids were younger, they are are young adults now and not with me all the time, I got into a conversation with another homeschooling mom about CHLs and such....she made a couple of remarks along the lines of "I could never a life" and "ew, guns....". I replied along the lines of "If a situation comes down to my kid's life or a bad guy's, there's no question what I'll do" and..."ok, if we're at park day, and a bad guy comes along, I won't protect your kid, I'll take care of mine."

yes, I was young and snarky, now I'm older and snarkier.....
Don't remember how the conversation came up at work but a women stated that she could only take a life to protect her kids, not herself. My reply was "So you're perfectly fine with them growing up without a mother then?" She didn't talk to me for days.
Jay E Morris, Guardian Firearm Training, NRA Pistol, LTC, Cibolo, Tx
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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#41

Post by SewTexas » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:58 am

jmorris wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:02 am
SewTexas wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm
when my kids were younger, they are are young adults now and not with me all the time, I got into a conversation with another homeschooling mom about CHLs and such....she made a couple of remarks along the lines of "I could never a life" and "ew, guns....". I replied along the lines of "If a situation comes down to my kid's life or a bad guy's, there's no question what I'll do" and..."ok, if we're at park day, and a bad guy comes along, I won't protect your kid, I'll take care of mine."

yes, I was young and snarky, now I'm older and snarkier.....
Don't remember how the conversation came up at work but a women stated that she could only take a life to protect her kids, not herself. My reply was "So you're perfectly fine with them growing up without a mother then?" She didn't talk to me for days.
whenever I've had such discussions, I've said that my job is to protect my kids, and to protect myself for my kids and my husband. My job is to get home for my kids and my husband.
~Tracy
Gun control is what you talk about when you don't want to talk about the truth ~ Colion Noir


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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#42

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:45 pm

Although the Fort Worth site would have been the closest to me, I didn't make my reservation early enough. They are now sold out.

So, I will be attending the Olney presentation on 2/8/20. It's 830 AM - 100 PM. Later that day, at 600 PM, they are going to be showing the movie "Faith Under Fire". I may eat, ride around, and otherwise kill time, so that I can see the movie with like-minded people.

Olney is 112 miles from me. My GPS stated exactly 2 hours travel time. Just to be safe, I will be leaving at 0530, to ensure arriving before it starts.

If any forum members are going, let's meet and say howdy. Use this thread to give me a heads up.

SIA
Last edited by surprise_i'm_armed on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
America.....just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need
to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us feel uncomfortable.

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#43

Post by srothstein » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:08 pm

oljames3 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:12 pm
imkopaka wrote:
I agree - however without making that decision all the training is moot. I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make. Without that choice the training amounts to nothing. I am actually planning some extensive training on different things - target shooting and marksmanship fundamentals, weapon care and maintenance, LTC laws and best practice, scenario drills, adrenaline drills, first aid and CPR, evac routes and mass casualty drills, etc.
Perhaps one cannot train another to be able to take a human life in just one day. However, I am certain that you remember USMC Boot Camp at least as fondly as I remember Army Basic Combat Training. Since 1776, our respective alma maters have been refining the process of converting naive civilians into willing killers. Under strict authority, of course.
OLJames3, thanks for this answer. I was also about to point out that there is a well proven science to training people to kill. The military has done it for years. Police academies also do it on a slightly smaller scale.
Steve Rothstein

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#44

Post by oljames3 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:15 pm

srothstein wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:08 pm
oljames3 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:12 pm
imkopaka wrote:
I agree - however without making that decision all the training is moot. I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make. Without that choice the training amounts to nothing. I am actually planning some extensive training on different things - target shooting and marksmanship fundamentals, weapon care and maintenance, LTC laws and best practice, scenario drills, adrenaline drills, first aid and CPR, evac routes and mass casualty drills, etc.
Perhaps one cannot train another to be able to take a human life in just one day. However, I am certain that you remember USMC Boot Camp at least as fondly as I remember Army Basic Combat Training. Since 1776, our respective alma maters have been refining the process of converting naive civilians into willing killers. Under strict authority, of course.
OLJames3, thanks for this answer. I was also about to point out that there is a well proven science to training people to kill. The military has done it for years. Police academies also do it on a slightly smaller scale.
Having made my own personal decision about killing another human in 1973 at Fort Leonard Wood, MO, I find that I forget that civilians in general, and may family members in particular, do not have the benefit of the US Army's finely tuned education. Helping those for whom I am responsible in making this decision is just as important as teaching them to shoot, from a self-defense aspect.
Some books I have found helpful in introduction others to a defensive mindset are On Comabt and On Killing by LCT (Ret) Dave Grossman and The Law of Self Defense by attorney Andre Branca. Grossman's books cover dealing with the physiological and emotional aftermath of a defensive shooting and Branca cover's the impact of going through the legal system.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

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Re: Church Meeting on CHL Topics

#45

Post by ELB » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:56 pm

Greg Ellefritz has some recommendations on:

Texas Church Attack: Post-Shooting Procedures
USAF 1982-2005
____________
“The only thing more enjoyable than seeing your opponent lose an election they rigged is seeing them lose an investigation they rigged.” Author unknown but dead on the mark.

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