our potential in unarmed self defense

[Mr. B]

hello all,

this is certainly off topic, but i believe it to be likely that some of you have some knowledge, experience, or interest in unarmed self defense (martial arts, etc.). it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch that interest in martial arts (for example) wouldn't be too odd to someone interested in a CHL.

i already have training in firearms, and whatever has led me to be so trained is also driving me to develop my ability in unarmed self-defense. i notice there are many different schools and institutions for self defense training. but i am skeptical and curious about how practical any of them are. i have found schools for women's self defense, karate , boxing, etc. these activities may be intrinsically enjoyable - but i wouldn't know and that's not my concern right now. practically, what kind of potential can they bring out in us? (in contrast, the practical nature of firearms training is much more obvious to me.)

my inquiry is not very much about the psychological aspects of self-defense. i believe that much of what i have already learned with regard to psychology and firearms training also applies to unarmed self-defense. my inquiry is largely about the physical aspect of unarmed self-defense.

let me explain. i suppose that martial arts training (for example) makes one tend more successful in an unarmed self-defense situation, all other things being equal. (that's the whole point, isn't it?) but how much more? what kind of potential for unarmed self-defense can training offer to one? can it save your life, is it a racket, or somewhere in between?

i know that there are many variables. we all have different natural ability. some of us work harder, practice more, are smarter, are stronger, are faster, etc. but what i am curious about are your stories and knowledge, from experience, from your own eyes, on one's potential for self defense. (i, on the other hand, have never been in a physical fight.)

for example, i suppose it is true that with training i could come to defend myself (while unarmed) against someone who is stronger than i am. but how much stronger? again i know everyone and every situation is different. but i want an idea. i also suppose that with training it's possible to defend myself against multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons, etc. but again, how much?

hope i'm not barking up the wrong tree...

[Lodge2004]

What is possible is determined largely by the person's attitude. It is possible to defeat somebody 2x your size. I know this because I've had somebody 1/2 my size take me to the ground in seconds. It is possible to defend against several attackers. I've both seen this and done it myself. I've also seen champion point fighters get destroyed in the ring by amateur full-contact fighters and people who could do beautiful kata, get creamed in seconds by "unskilled" street fighters.

Over the last +/- 30 years, I've studied Tae Kwon Do, Kempo and Kajukembo. These days, I focus on basic self defense with empty hands/knife/pistol. Unarmed self defense (of any style) is very important for those interested in self preservation. It's the attitude that counts more than the technique, BUT the skills you learn in any style of fighting CAN be helpful. It all depends on how you use what you learn. A skilled fighter with a killer instinct would be a perfect combination.

As Joseph Rosa says in the introduction to "Triggernometry: A Gallery of Gunfighters" - "The true gunfighter was already confident of the result when he drew and fired. The mistake so many fast-draw fanatics make is to believe that speed is of essence, whereas a cool, cold-blooded, and determined approach, backed by the killer instinct, invariably wins."

Same thing applies to empty hands self defense.

[bdickens]

It is important, I think, to realize that most martial arts as taught are sports and not fighting. As Lodge2004 pointed out, a lot of times martial arts champions get waxed by street fighters in real fights. I remember whet the "Ultimate Fighting Championship" stuff first came out, you'd see some 10th degree black belt five time world Taekwondo champion get his (gleuteus maximus) handed to him by some bar bouncer from Norman, OK in about three seconds. That's because the taekwondo guy is used to having rules and protective gear and the bar bouncer is used to fighting for real.

[agbullet2k1]

I've heard from my friends who have done martial arts classes that it is primarily a hobby/exercise/discipline type of thing. Sure it will give you a few moves to use, but only if the person you're fighting is fighting in the same style. I know of no fighting technique that will work flawlessly against a large drunk guy with no concept of pain.

There's a video I won't post here due to it being of questionably violence (no blood or gore, but pretty much an amateur street fighting video). One opponent was obviously well trained in the art of Brazillian dance fighting (Capoeira, those of you who have ever played any of the Tekken games surely know of Eddie Gordo). Anyway, this guy flips around for a solid 30 seconds, showing off his obviously superior fighting skills, and really just trying to intimidate the other guy. Well the other guy just stands in his corner, watching him. Dancing guy eventually starts moving toward standing guy, and standing guy throws one punch as dancing guy is coming up from a handstand. The punch lands square on dancing guy's face (which is also moving into the punch) and he's knocked out cold. Standing guy collects his winnings and walks out of the ring. Anyone interested in a link PM me.

The point is, superior unnarmed combat training is all well and good, and certainly better than no training, but don't count on it to save your life in all circumstances. As always, prevention is the best defense, and constantly being vigilant is the best way to do that.

[Rokyudai]

agbullet ,

I've seen that video. It is from a recent movie (something like FightClub meets Dawson's Creek...won't even waste my time looking for a title), though it does look like it's supposed to be from an on looker v taping it.

[agbullet2k1]

Aww, oh well, it still makes me fall out my chair when I watch it, so therefore it's real to me.

[Zero_G]

For a martial art that is truly aimed at self defense rather than a sport, check out Haganah (http://fight2survive.com) or Krav Maga (http://kravmaga.com). Both come out of the Israeli Defense Force training and are combat-proven methods that borrow from numerous styles. They focus on situational awareness, starting from a position of disadvantage, and not requiring superior strength to win. Haganah also has options for knife and gun fighting (both styles teach defense from an armed opponent).

edit: Note: the Haganah site has a banner about a conference that covers the site when you first access it. Give it 20 - 30 seconds to go away. I can refer people to instructors in Houston. PM me if interested (I get nothing for referrals).

[NcongruNt]

For a martial art that is truly aimed at self defense rather than a sport, check out Haganah (http://fight2survive.com) or Krav Maga (http://kravmaga.com). Both come out of the Israeli Defense Force training and are combat-proven methods that borrow from numerous styles. They focus on situational awareness, starting from a position of disadvantage, and not requiring superior strength to win. Haganah also has options for knife and gun fighting (both styles teach defense from an armed opponent).

edit: Note: the Haganah site has a banner about a conference that covers the site when you first access it. Give it 20 - 30 seconds to go away. I can refer people to instructors in Houston. PM me if interested (I get nothing for referrals).

There's also a "Hide Window" link on the bottom right of the popup that will make it go away immediately.

The Haganah classes seem interesting. It appears that Austin Self Defense has classes. I'll have to e-mail them and see what they say about training related to CHL-specific issues and possible CQ offensive and defensive combat with a firearm and knife. If they can do that (in addition to the non-weapon combat), I'd be interested in trying it out. And like most martial arts places, they don't post fees anywhere. That is one thing that irks me about these kind of places. I'll have to ask them about that.

Interestingly enough, they teach the Cooper Color Code. That's a definite positive.

[Rokyudai]

Sorry man! I didn't want to be the one to tell you about Santa and the Easterbunny either!

At any rate, it is still a funny clip.