Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

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mojo84
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#121

Post by mojo84 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:01 pm

Every situation can be second guessed. If Finicum was so intent on living and valued his life as much as others seem to on his behalf, he could have done things much differently as well.

His actions led to his death. If it would have been a street gang, people wouldn't be saying anything about how the authorities should have waited them out.

These folks were armed fugitives and Finicum had already vowed he would rather die than go to jail. He got his wish. Now he can be considered an antigovernment martyr.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#122

Post by Javier730 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:22 pm

mojo84 wrote:Every situation can be second guessed. If Finicum was so intent on living and valued his life as much as others seem to on his begalf, he could have done things much differently as well.

His actions led to his death. If it would have been a street gang, people wouldn't be saying anything about how the authorities should have waited them out.

These folks were armed fugitives and Finicum had already vowed he would rather die than go to jail. He got his wish. Now he can be considered an antigovernment martyr.
:iagree: Well said.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#123

Post by AndyC » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:46 pm

When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#124

Post by parabelum » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:54 pm

LSUTiger wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
LSUTiger wrote:


There are a lot of errors in the video with the guy with the whiny. There were three guns in the truck and Finicum did have a gun in his pocket. The guy said they were not armed. I quit listening at that point due to a lack of credibility and his whiny voice.


Despite the ill advised actions of these protesters and the whiny guy was wrong on a few points, I think the fact that police could have waited these guys out but didn't and also Oregon governor was pushing for action to be taken and it was (they forced the issue, creating this scenario instead of a little more patience), points to the fact it could have been handled differently. Just a little more psyops for a little longer and they would have given up. The protesters were not very organized and the whole protest was not very well thought out. The police always had the advantage but I guess the po po's operating budget/politicians patience is more important than a human life.

Kinda of like pushing a suicidal jumper off the roof instead of trying to talk him down.
I agree!

And to those who are quick to accept a label propagated by the Feds that this Patriot was an armed fugitive, and therefore this over the top nazi-like aggression was justified, just remember what Martin Niemöller said during WWII.

You'd be unpleasantly surprised one day to find yourself on the other side of the fascist fence.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#125

Post by parabelum » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:58 pm

AndyC wrote:When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.
I agree 100%, except I honestly cannot say what I would do if despite my compliance I got shot at, or if in the midst of a situation I trembled in the snow and got shot at. Survive, fight back, drop down...I don't know and I hope I'm never in that position.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#126

Post by Javier730 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:00 pm

AndyC wrote:When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.
:iagree: keep your hands up, comply with the orders and live.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#127

Post by mojo84 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:03 pm

I have not seen any label propagated by the feds. I came up with the armed fugitive label on my own based on what I've seen and read.

I do not rely on anti-government conspiracy theorists telling me what to think or believe.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#128

Post by Javier730 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:11 pm

parabelum wrote:
AndyC wrote:When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.
I agree 100%, except I honestly cannot say what I would do if despite my compliance I got shot at, or if in the midst of a situation I trembled in the snow and got shot at. Survive, fight back, drop down...I don't know and I hope I'm never in that position.
Best thing to do is not put yourself in a position like that. Don't hang around with groups saying they are ready to kill or be killed by law enforcement. Don't run from the police. Don't try and go around LEO road blocks. Keep your hands up when police have weapons drawn on you.

This guy is not a good example of someone being shot while complying though. As for trembling in the snow. Peoples arms usually extend when they are falling, tripping, stumbling, etc. They usually extend forward if your falling forward and to the sides or raised when stumbling to the side or backwards. They don't go towards your torso.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#129

Post by parabelum » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:29 pm

mojo84 wrote:I have not seen any label propagated by the feds. I came up with the armed fugitive label on my own based on what I've seen and read.

I do not rely on anti-government conspiracy theorists telling me what to think or believe.

That's fair enough.

Let me try to rephrase my thoughts on this.

Is this United States of America or Nazi Germany circa 1939?

Does private property mean anything to anyone anymore (we go back and forth all day over private property rights on this forum)?

Does a free citizen have a right to protect his property from Federal thievery?

Should a free citizen be intimidated to surrender his livelihood upon Federal demand? If not, then what resource can that citizen use when courts and Feds pile up, with little to no money to fight this battle in court?

What gives BLM the right to seize private land?

Finally, what is the purpose of the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution?


My fellow forum members, some of you know me, most do not. Some of you are much older and wiser then I am, others not so much.

Can you not see how desensitized people have become to tyranny?

Please, look up 'ol Martin Niemöller, look up Tytlers Cycle, look up BLM and foreign governments involvement into land grab, look at what they've done for decades, how many innocent people died directly or indirectly as result of this tyranny.

This man did not deserve to be put down like an animal. They have more patience and restraint with terrorist jihadis.

Very sad.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#130

Post by VMI77 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:35 pm

k
Javier730 wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
Warning signs are like no guns allowed signs? False analogy/strawman. The point of the warning sign in this case would be to give someone a chance to comply before their vehicle is damaged and potentially, before it is necessary to employ lethal force. A no guns sign is to keep out those of us with LTCs under threat of being charged with a Class C misdemeanor if we're caught. There is no immediate consequence to ignoring the sign for anyone.
The "No Guns Allowed" signs I was talking about are the gunbuster signs, not the 30.06 and/or 30.07 signs. Criminals dont care about a gunbuster sign. He ignored the police sirens and you think he would stop for a warning sign? If the SUV with flashing police lights and several LEOs pointing the weapons at him didnt let him know their vehicle was going to be damaged and that lethal force was going to be used, no darn sign would.
VMI77 wrote:Your link didn't work so I don't know what the dangerous claim is based on. Spike strips are dangerous? Yet the police use them. You mean more dangerous than shooting someone multiple times? To who? I though you said the objective was to protect the police at the road block? TXDOT manages to put up warning signs when they're doing road work so I can stop before I run over a flagman. Warning: Spike Strips ahead, slow down and be prepared to stop. One mile later: Warning, Spike Strips, Stop Your Vehicle.
Here it is again: https://leb.fbi.gov/2012/september/bull ... ike-strips

Im sure those "Warning, Spike Strips, Stop Your Vehicle" signs is just what this guy needed to see to get him to stop. :roll:
VMI77 wrote:You don't have to be a criminal to commit a crime. That's exactly what the left says about us concealed carriers who've had a background check. So should I assume you're a potential criminal based on the concept that literally anyone might at some time commit a crime no matter what they've done in the past? That's a strawman. My reference to his lack of a criminal record was in support of him not being stupid. I equated him to ME, and I'm not stupid enough to run a road block so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Your assumption is that he is stupid, based on nothing more than a conclusion you've drawn based on an inconclusive video.
I see his vehicle stopped by police. I see the police not firing their weapons for about 7 minutes. I say they arent firing based on the fact that he is not fleeing from gunfire for those 7 minutes. 7 minutes is enough time for the police to give the order for him to get out and surrender, enough time for him to comply and enough time for him to be taken into custody for whatever he is being detained or arrested for. To take off for any reason other than being fired at, which of course there is no evidence to support that, would be a very stupid decision.
I think your missing the point. The spike strips would be to force a stop after he ignored the signs. The signs are to warn what will happen if the vehicle continues. It's like dropping leaflets and giving ISIS drivers a chance to get out of their vehicle before an airstrike...a final attempt to avoid killing someone. They could have arrested him at any time as they had let all these guys travel freely for days if not weeks. They chose to make a show of force instead. Just like the BATF did at Waco.

And as far as being armed is concerned...all of us here are likely to be armed. Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal. The police in Vegas shot a guy coming out of a Costco store who was a West Point grad and concealed carrier. The "he was armed" justification can be used against all of us, and the antis would love for just that to happen, and for any of us carrying a gun to be killed by the police. They're celebrating Funicum's death. They'll celebrate any of us being killed whether we deserve it or not.

If this guy had been some thug with a long criminal record robbing a liquor store the left would be decrying his murder and asking why the police didn't just shoot him in the leg. And yes, my sympathies would be different....I'm less sympathetic to the fate of documented thugs. You don't have to do anything morally wrong in this country to be labeled a criminal or enemy of the state.

This government already makes criminals arbitrarily of those who deposit or withdrawn certain sums of money from their own bank accounts. The law has already made thousands if not hundreds of thousands of us criminals in states like NY. If Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders is elected president the law will seek to make criminals out of most of us. We all may have to confront the choice of being obedient or being criminals in the eyes of the state.

Mr. Funicum could have avoided all this and he'd still be alive. I don't dispute that fact. People on this forum have said they will not obey a law that confiscates weapons they possess. Maybe we won't be confronted with that choice and maybe we will. Personally, I don't think we're at the point where armed civil disobedience is practical or justified.

OTOH, the government hasn't trampled over me personally. I think these guys in Oregon were premature in the manner of their opposition and chose the wrong time and the wrong hill and the wrong battle. But we all know why the 2nd amendment is in the constitution and it's not for hunting. Though I think their actions are premature, that people are starting to resist may prevent worse things from happening to the rest of us, so I'm not ready to dismiss people like Mr. Funicum as mere criminals.

The ruling class in this country is not populated by our friends, it's populated by our enemies, and the enemies of God and humanity in general. I think we're facing the last opportunity for peaceful change. If Hillary or Bernie is elected president our opportunity for peaceful change will be limited to the resolve of the individual states. I fear hard decisions are ahead for us all.
Last edited by VMI77 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#131

Post by mojo84 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:38 pm

They did use spoke strips. Finicum went around them.

https://m.fbi.gov/#https://www.fbi.gov/ ... ife-refuge
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#132

Post by Bitter Clinger » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:39 pm

No way this was going to end well. Here's what was streaming live over social media:



and this:

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2 ... -last.html
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#133

Post by mojo84 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:38 pm

I love it when I get lectured about remember the nazis when the person being supported is the kind of wonderful level headed patriot as featured in the links provided by Bitter Clinger.

Here is a little excerpt from the links for the anti-government bandwagon jumpers.
His social media accounts included posts that were anti-Semitic, homophobic, and pro-Nazi, as well as posts in support of ISIS. After media reports about his posts, many were deleted.
Some more about Finicum's fellow level headed honorable patriots.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-or ... -not-isis/

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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#134

Post by Javier730 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:52 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:No way this was going to end well. Here's what was streaming live over social media:



and this:

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2 ... -last.html
Having that guy as a member of their group pretty much says it all. Not a very bright group of individuals. Hard to believe there is people who listen to and are influenced by the garbage that comes of this mans mouth.
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Re: Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

#135

Post by parabelum » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:58 pm

You ever consider the possibility that those idiots are perhaps staged for a different cause?
FBI has admitted that they have their agents amongst the militia so....

Now, since I did not see anyone else bring this up, but, look at the camera from FBI aircraft and the date, now look when this Patriot was executed. Yep, I'm sure there will be perfect answer sold to all good citizens.

Next, where did this Patriot "reach" allegedly versus where his gun was actually at?

BTW, where were the Feds with stun grenades in Furgeson or Baltimore as real thugs plundered, and assaulted citizens?
Where was this tactical response there?

You see, this isn't adding up. At all.
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