Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

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tx85
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#61

Post by tx85 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:51 pm

Through case law "dagger" has been defined as any knife having a double edged blade, which means that this 3.4" Microtech is currently an "illegal knife" in TX:

Image

The Supreme Court has held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding". So this bill's passage will be a nice — if mostly symbolic — 2A victory that eliminates the absurdity that you can legally carry a gun but not certain knives.

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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#62

Post by Liberty » Sat May 20, 2017 4:44 pm

I think it's mostly about the right to keep and bear arms. A knife sword or dagger is one of the most basic of arms. I'm not too interested in using a knife for self-defence, but it kinda bugs me that I could be arrested for owning what I might consider to be a tool.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#63

Post by Jusme » Sun May 21, 2017 6:12 pm

Abraham wrote:No question, I'm not up to date regarding the hullaballoo some on this forum seem to have regarding knives.

What's the deal?

Want to carry a big ole honking knife, but can only do so at home or in your yard?

Frankly, I don't have a problem with people carrying knives big enough to require wheels, but I don't know why such interest in knives and the law?

Please, someone clue me in as at this point, the biggest amount of energy I can muster about carrying knives is a: YAWN!

I don't think there are a huge number of people who are interested in strapping on swords, to visit the local 7-11. But I can tell you as a former LEO, the law has been misused to arrest otherwise law abiding citizens. Especially when "gravity" knives, or "knives capable of being opened with one hand" were still illegal.
These laws are simply another attempt by law makers to try to "control" behavior, by trying to control inanimate objects. Some of these laws date back to just after the Civil War, and with any laws, of these types, have had exactly zero effect on reducing crime.
Removing these laws has not garnered a lot of attention, because as you said, most people have no interest in carrying large knives, daggers, or many of the other things prohibited. But right now, an over zealous LEO, and prosecutor, could potentially ruin someone's life if they have a machete in their vehicle, and can't convince them it was for a legitimate purpose.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#64

Post by apvonkanel » Mon May 22, 2017 8:58 am

Jusme wrote: But right now, an over zealous LEO, and prosecutor, could potentially ruin someone's life if they have a machete in their vehicle, and can't convince them it was for a legitimate purpose.
I have a family member that has been refused many jobs because his criminal background check shows an "illegal weapon" conviction. He had a balisong (AKA butterfly knife) that his girlfriend at the time bought him in the arm-rest of his truck. It was over fifteen years ago, the knives have since been legalized, and his record still prevents him from plenty of high paying jobs for which he is otherwise qualified. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#65

Post by K.Mooneyham » Mon May 22, 2017 11:22 am

Abraham wrote:No question, I'm not up to date regarding the hullaballoo some on this forum seem to have regarding knives.

What's the deal?

Want to carry a big ole honking knife, but can only do so at home or in your yard?

Frankly, I don't have a problem with people carrying knives big enough to require wheels, but I don't know why such interest in knives and the law?

Please, someone clue me in as at this point, the biggest amount of energy I can muster about carrying knives is a: YAWN!
Here is an everyday type scenario that will hopefully make this clearer. Let's say I'm working some fence on my property outside of town. I have a "large" knife on my belt because I'm replacing rough wood fence posts, the mesquite posts are more like overgrown sticks. Sometimes you need to trim them up just a bit, and that's what the knife is for. I run out of bailing wire to secure the posts and need to drive into town to the ranch supply store to get another roll. I forget to take off the knife and a town police officer sees it on my belt. He could hassle me about it, he could arrest me for it, and if the ADA really had a thing against knives, I might even be prosecuted. All because I forgot to take the knife off just to run and get some bailing wire. I wouldn't be harming anyone, and yet the law could be used against me. That isn't right, and I hope by miracle chance, this bill goes through. I don't care about daggers, swords, or whatever else like that, but just like with firearms, what matters is how they are being used or misused, not simply having one.


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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#66

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:38 am

tx85 wrote:Through case law "dagger" has been defined as any knife having a double edged blade, which means that this 3.4" Microtech is currently an "illegal knife" in TX:

Image

The Supreme Court has held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding". So this bill's passage will be a nice — if mostly symbolic — 2A victory that eliminates the absurdity that you can legally carry a gun but not certain knives.
Couldn't this also apply to a utility knife that extends a razor blade out of the end? After all, at least some of these use razor blades that are sharp on both sides.

In a former life, I installed carpeting and we used just such a knife that we nicknamed a "bloody Mary" knife, for obvious reasons. If all double edged knives are illegal then every carpet installer in Texas is subject to potential arrest.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#67

Post by Jusme » Mon May 22, 2017 12:11 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
tx85 wrote:Through case law "dagger" has been defined as any knife having a double edged blade, which means that this 3.4" Microtech is currently an "illegal knife" in TX:

Image

The Supreme Court has held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding". So this bill's passage will be a nice — if mostly symbolic — 2A victory that eliminates the absurdity that you can legally carry a gun but not certain knives.
Couldn't this also apply to a utility knife that extends a razor blade out of the end? After all, at least some of these use razor blades that are sharp on both sides.

In a former life, I installed carpeting and we used just such a knife that we nicknamed a "bloody Mary" knife, for obvious reasons. If all double edged knives are illegal then every carpet installer in Texas is subject to potential arrest.

That's correct, as a LEO, I never hassled anyone about a knife due to it's length, number of sharpened edges, whether it could be opened with one hand (which I always wondered why the ADA didn't protest the law, because it discriminates against a disabled person) or whether I thought it was a "Bowie" knife, unless they were using the knife to try to threaten, or harm someone. I would arrest them for that, even if it was a three inch pocket knife with no other "illegal" features. However, I did witness other officers, use the knife laws to arrest people, who would not have been arrested, for any other reason. The fact that most categories of knives had exceptions to their possession, made the entire set of laws, ridiculous on it's face. As previously stated, if using a large knife/machete, for a legitimate purpose was allowed, why would the simple possession of that same knife/machete, be illegal when not engaged in that activity?
Just so everyone is aware, until the law goes into effect, if asked, I am on my way to clear brush, or going camping. (and yes, sometimes, I wear a coat and tie to do those things) :mrgreen:
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#68

Post by ScottDLS » Mon May 22, 2017 12:31 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
tx85 wrote:Through case law "dagger" has been defined as any knife having a double edged blade, which means that this 3.4" Microtech is currently an "illegal knife" in TX:

Image

The Supreme Court has held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding". So this bill's passage will be a nice — if mostly symbolic — 2A victory that eliminates the absurdity that you can legally carry a gun but not certain knives.
Couldn't this also apply to a utility knife that extends a razor blade out of the end? After all, at least some of these use razor blades that are sharp on both sides.

In a former life, I installed carpeting and we used just such a knife that we nicknamed a "bloody Mary" knife, for obvious reasons. If all double edged knives are illegal then every carpet installer in Texas is subject to potential arrest.
The whole thing about illegal knives is the prohibition on "carrying them on or about your person" outside of property or premises under your control. That an the intent of the use can bear on the definition of an illegal knife. So in the case of a carpet knife you could argue it's not a dagger, or that even if it is, the property where you are installing carpet is "under your control (for the purpose of installing carpet)".

Also, carrying a baseball bat. It meets the definition of a club, but not if it's being used at baseball practice (sporting exception). A crowbar or screwdriver could also be considered "burglary tools", but only subject to a provable intent to use or use in committing burglary.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#69

Post by Jusme » Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
tx85 wrote:Through case law "dagger" has been defined as any knife having a double edged blade, which means that this 3.4" Microtech is currently an "illegal knife" in TX:

Image

The Supreme Court has held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding". So this bill's passage will be a nice — if mostly symbolic — 2A victory that eliminates the absurdity that you can legally carry a gun but not certain knives.
Couldn't this also apply to a utility knife that extends a razor blade out of the end? After all, at least some of these use razor blades that are sharp on both sides.

In a former life, I installed carpeting and we used just such a knife that we nicknamed a "bloody Mary" knife, for obvious reasons. If all double edged knives are illegal then every carpet installer in Texas is subject to potential arrest.
The whole thing about illegal knives is the prohibition on "carrying them on or about your person" outside of property or premises under your control. That an the intent of the use can bear on the definition of an illegal knife. So in the case of a carpet knife you could argue it's not a dagger, or that even if it is, the property where you are installing carpet is "under your control (for the purpose of installing carpet)".

Also, carrying a baseball bat. It meets the definition of a club, but not if it's being used at baseball practice (sporting exception). A crowbar or screwdriver could also be considered "burglary tools", but only subject to a provable intent to use or use in committing burglary.
You can be arrested for having an "illegal" knife in your vehicle, which is under your control. The prohibition comes from not being engaged in an activity, where that particular knife would be normally used. A chef could be arrested, for carrying a butcher knife (over 5.5 inches), in his vehicle, while on vacation, where he would not be performing his duties as a chef, and not travelling to and from his home and work. The same thing for carrying a machete, if you are not travelling to and from a place where it would normally be used. The prohibitions came about the same way gun control prohibitions came about, and that was to try to control people's behaviors, or misuse of something, by creating prohibitions against simple possession, with no reasonable suspicion, that they had, or would be, used in the commission of a crime. Not to mention, the enforcement of these laws, is completely arbitrary, and left up to individual LEO, and prosecutors. A 2" knife is just as capable of killing someone, as a 24" machete, and much easier to conceal, and manipulate in close quarters. None of the prohibited knives are more deadly than the non-prohibited ones. Some of the prohibitions even came about because of movies (switchblades) as if every gang member was suddenly going to start dancing with knives like they did in "West Side Story"

I worked one homicide involving a knife, two young men, got into a fight, one had a 3" knife, and stabbed the other in the upper thigh. He and his buddies didn't think it was a serious wound, and there was very little external bleeding, so they drove away. It wasn't until he lost consciousness, that they took him to the hospital. The knife cut his femoral artery, and he bled to death, about 30 minutes later.
The one who did the stabbing was charged with manslaughter, but not UCW, since the knife was "legal"
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#70

Post by apvonkanel » Mon May 22, 2017 1:48 pm

It was even worse before the knife preemption law was passed. In some areas even a lock-blade was illegal.
Just as a crow-bar or baseball bat are deadly weapons with the right intent, so can be a knife. I happen to be a big fan of knives, straight razors, shuriken (aka throwing stars/spikes) and sharp objects in general. Once my ex -wife asked me to sharpen her tweezers, and she should have been more specific. I have great skill when it comes to making things sharp, and enjoy the craftsmanship of good steel. Much like how I generally carry a compact handgun because it's convenient, I tend to carry smaller blades (around 3.5"). That being said, sometimes I carry my full-sized pistol just because I can. It's rare, honestly, unless I'm going out on family land, but it's my right to do so either way. The fact that archaic laws exist regarding a simple piece of sharpened metal in this day and age is baffling. We all know that in either an offensive or defensive scenario, Rollin White ensured that blades, bats, hammers, or anything else was no longer the effective weapon of the day.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#71

Post by ELB » Tue May 23, 2017 10:16 am

HB 1935 was placed on the Senate's Intent Calendar today. That's good news in that it means it is not dead. As I understand it, to be brought to the floor for debate and voting will require 19 Senators - and the Lt Governor - to agree to bring it, and being a House Bill it can only be brought to the floor on certain days of the week. The sponsor has to reaffirm daily that he wants the bill to stay on the intent calendar.

So progress, but still some hurdles.
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#72

Post by OldCurlyWolf » Tue May 23, 2017 11:40 am

Jusme wrote:
Abraham wrote:No question, I'm not up to date regarding the hullaballoo some on this forum seem to have regarding knives.

What's the deal?

Want to carry a big ole honking knife, but can only do so at home or in your yard?

Frankly, I don't have a problem with people carrying knives big enough to require wheels, but I don't know why such interest in knives and the law?

Please, someone clue me in as at this point, the biggest amount of energy I can muster about carrying knives is a: YAWN!

I don't think there are a huge number of people who are interested in strapping on swords, to visit the local 7-11. But I can tell you as a former LEO, the law has been misused to arrest otherwise law abiding citizens. Especially when "gravity" knives, or "knives capable of being opened with one hand" were still illegal.
These laws are simply another attempt by law makers to try to "control" behavior, by trying to control inanimate objects. Some of these laws date back to just after the Civil War, and with any laws, of these types, have had exactly zero effect on reducing crime.
Removing these laws has not garnered a lot of attention, because as you said, most people have no interest in carrying large knives, daggers, or many of the other things prohibited. But right now, an over zealous LEO, and prosecutor, could potentially ruin someone's life if they have a machete in their vehicle, and can't convince them it was for a legitimate purpose.
Jusme,
I carry things like machetes in my vehicles all the time. Have for nearly 50 years. I also carry pick axe handles. Just another set of tools for surveyors.

Of course no officer is going to get a Permission Search of any of my vehicles. I don't want them to hurt themselves. Too many pointy or edged things in my truck.

Then there is the fact that the last time I was the subject of a traffic stop was September, 1997.

:thumbs2:
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#73

Post by tx85 » Tue May 23, 2017 8:15 pm

HB1935 05/24/2017 S Placed on local & uncontested calendar

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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#74

Post by ScottDLS » Tue May 23, 2017 8:48 pm

Poniards, what about poniards? :smilelol5:
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Re: Texas Illegal Knife Bill unanimously passes out of committee.

#75

Post by ELB » Thu May 25, 2017 9:10 am

HB 1935 received its second and third readings in the Senate last night and was passed without any amendments, as far as I can see. Looks like Governor's desk is the next stop. This is good news in an otherwise...lackluster...year for 2A advancement.
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