From prone to standing in 1 second or less

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From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#1

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:57 pm

Here is an article Andy posted on his Facebook page. It's a good read and warning for law enforcement and citizens who may find themselves holding a criminal at gunpoint waiting for police.

Chas.

https://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safet ... -suspects/
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#2

Post by Grundy1133 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:12 pm

as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#3

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 pm

It would seem the 21 ft rule still applies. Distance is still the key to reaction time.....
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#4

Post by Jago668 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:35 pm

I'd like to see similar tests done with supine positions.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#5

Post by mojo84 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:48 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
I would encourage you to re-evaluate your position. The weapon can be effective in many instances without pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger only when necessary to stop the threat is what one should do. If you pull your gun and the threat is stopped by the mere presence of your gun and then going ahead and shooting just because you have predetermined you are going to shoot if you draw your gun is not prudent and could get you in a lot of legal trouble.

The idea is to be ready, willing and able to use your gun any time you draw it but drawing it shouldn't necessarily dictate you have to pull the trigger.

This article also shows why it is so dangerous for a single officer to try to cover and cuff a suspect that is proned out. The tables can change very quickly.
Last edited by mojo84 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#6

Post by bblhd672 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:50 pm

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:It would seem the 21 ft rule still applies. Distance is still the key to reaction time.....
That's what I thought when I read it, even if you're holding someone at gunpoint face down you should have some distance between the person and yourself.

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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#7

Post by Grundy1133 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:53 pm

mojo84 wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
I would encourage you to re-evaluate your position. The weapon can be effective in many instances without pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger only when necessary to stop the threat is what one should do. If you pull your gun and the threat is stopped by the mere presence of your gun and then going ahead and shooting just because you have predetermined you are going to shoot if you draw your gun is not prudent and could get you in a lot of legal trouble.

The idea is to be ready, willing and able to use your gun any time you draw it but drawing it shouldn't necessarily dictate you have to pull the trigger.
see our instructor in our LTC class told us dont draw your gun to try and scare/intimidate them. if you draw your weapon intend to use it. but unless the situation actually arises, we dont really know how we'll react. (also i might add that our instructor is active LEO and trains dallas SWAT and other officers... so maybe thats what they teach LEOs)
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#8

Post by mojo84 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:03 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
I would encourage you to re-evaluate your position. The weapon can be effective in many instances without pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger only when necessary to stop the threat is what one should do. If you pull your gun and the threat is stopped by the mere presence of your gun and then going ahead and shooting just because you have predetermined you are going to shoot if you draw your gun is not prudent and could get you in a lot of legal trouble.

The idea is to be ready, willing and able to use your gun any time you draw it but drawing it shouldn't necessarily dictate you have to pull the trigger.
see our instructor in our LTC class told us dont draw your gun to try and scare/intimidate them. if you draw your weapon intend to use it. but unless the situation actually arises, we dont really know how we'll react. (also i might add that our instructor is active LEO and trains dallas SWAT and other officers... so maybe thats what they teach LEOs)
I can assure you, LEO's draw their weapons without pulling the trigger at times. Don't confuse "intend" or "willing" to shoot with "must" shoot if you draw. Of course, you should never draw your gun unless it is warranted. Warranted can also be when you need to create the apprehension you will use deadly force if the threat does not stop. If the threat does not stop, then you need to be ready, willing and able to use your weapon accordingly.

Some of the cop videos that appear to be unjustified shootings happen when it seems a cop has predetermined if he draws he must shoot. Not sure a non-cop will get the benefit of the doubt some of the cops have received.


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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#9

Post by flechero » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.

You have severely hamstrung yourself in that case... no 2 situations are identical and no predetermined course of action is suitable for all scenarios.

Chance you either wait too long to draw and get killed because you pigeon holed yourself or draw and shoot too early- potentially drawing a murder charge.

Everyone likes to think they can draw from concealment and fire a couple a-zone hits in 2-3 seconds but in reality, very few can do it cold, on demand, with nerves or adrenaline flowing.
Last edited by flechero on Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#10

Post by troglodyte » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Distance is your friend.

During my School Safety instructor's class I played the role of the armed teacher with a class of special needs students (no help). After I stopped the threat I knelt down (behind concealment/cover) and covered the "BG" as he lay on the floor. The DPS entry team came in and secured the scene. In the debrief Lt. Nix asked me why I didn't clear the gun from laying next to the suspect's hand. I countered with, "When you approached the suspect you had five guys with ARs and when you reached down to secure the suspect you had a guy with an AR over your shoulder covering you. I didn't have that so I chose not to get close. If he twitched he was going to get shot again." That seemed to satisfy LT.

I can't say that I had already planned that out or if it was just too many bad movies where the BG suddenly jumps back up but I didn't see any need to go introduce myself to the "BG".

Not being a police officer I see no reason to get close to the BG. Stay close enough to control the scene, use cover as possible, call 911, and be prepared to improvise anywhere along the way.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#11

Post by bblhd672 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
I would encourage you to re-evaluate your position. The weapon can be effective in many instances without pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger only when necessary to stop the threat is what one should do. If you pull your gun and the threat is stopped by the mere presence of your gun and then going ahead and shooting just because you have predetermined you are going to shoot if you draw your gun is not prudent and could get you in a lot of legal trouble.

The idea is to be ready, willing and able to use your gun any time you draw it but drawing it shouldn't necessarily dictate you have to pull the trigger.
see our instructor in our LTC class told us dont draw your gun to try and scare/intimidate them. if you draw your weapon intend to use it. but unless the situation actually arises, we dont really know how we'll react. (also i might add that our instructor is active LEO and trains dallas SWAT and other officers... so maybe thats what they teach LEOs)
Mojo84 gave you the correct answer. Your instructor did not.
Either your instructor was wrong or you misunderstood. If you believe the act of unholstering your gun is followed by pulling the trigger, then you have raised the odds you will illegally shoot someone. It's a horrible thing to teach someone that pulling the trigger is the only deterrent. If your instructor is teaching this he shouldn't be an instructor of anyone, law enforcement or civilian. This is how LEO's end up in the news by unjustifiably shooting someone who wasn't a threat. An unholstered, unfired weapon has deterred thousands of crimes.

The first thing I learned when I came to this forum was my instructor didn't necessarily give 100% factual information, some of what he said was his opinion and not good tactics nor good legally. A sage piece of advice given was to quit using the phrase "my instructor said" and start reading and learning what is right.

There's a wealth of very good advice on this forum from experienced instructors and gun owners. Every new forum member should take the time to listen to all of Charles' podcasts on the Texas Firearms Coalition website https://www.texasfirearmscoalition.com/ ... p/podcasts.

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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#12

Post by troglodyte » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:26 pm

The first thing I learned when I came to this forum was my instructor didn't necessarily give 100% factual information, some of what he said was his opinion and not good tactics nor good legally. A sage piece of advice given was to quit using the phrase "my instructor said" and start reading and learning what is right.
As an instructor I strive to present the course in the most accurate way that I can. Even so, I know that I may misspeak or the student may mishear...or both. What I say may be correct but in the way I say it may be construed in another way. Or, I may just simply say something wrong unintentionally.

In any conversation:
What I meant to say.
What I actually said.
What you heard.
What you think you heard.
How you respond.
How I think you responded.
Repeat.

If something doesn't sound right, ask for clarification. The LEO instructor may have said something like, "If you pull your firearm you had better be prepared to use it." His meaning may have been, "don't pull you gun unless the threat demands it" or "don't pull your gun just to bluff", or some other legitimate interpretation. It could be easy for someone sitting in a class, especially if the concept of self-defense or carrying a firearm is new, to hear, "If you pull your firearm you have better use it."

BTW I have heard the same thing from students from other instructors taking renewal classes from me, when we had renewal classes, so maybe this is a line of thought out there.

I try to stay mindful of this when I teach but it is not foolproof.

And to stay on topic:

An as LTCs we almost always are on the reactive side of the loop. If a BG is prone and we are covering him then he gets to choose if he moves or not and when and how he may move. By maintaining distance we afford ourselves more time to catch up. Distance equals time.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#13

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:42 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
This is your call and you may be legally justified in doing so.

Research going back to the 1970s and updated at least twice indicate that citizens use firearms in self-defense anywhere from 1.5 million to 2.5 million times annually. The vast majority of the time, no shots are fired. It is the rare criminal indeed that will ignore the bore of a firearm and continue with an attack. They exist, but they are the exception not the rule.

Holding an attacker at gunpoint can still be necessary, even if you do shoot. Once the threat is over, your justification to use deadly force no longer exists. If your now-wounded attacker is still alive, then you have to deal with a possible counter-attack.

Aside from legality, I don't want to try to sleep knowing I legally killed someone when I could have simply diffused the situation by displaying my handgun. There's a reason Texas law has Tex. Penal Code §9.04 available.

Again, it's your call and all of us have to make those decisions based upon our training and experience.

Chas.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#14

Post by twomillenium » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:55 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
I would encourage you to re-evaluate your position. The weapon can be effective in many instances without pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger only when necessary to stop the threat is what one should do. If you pull your gun and the threat is stopped by the mere presence of your gun and then going ahead and shooting just because you have predetermined you are going to shoot if you draw your gun is not prudent and could get you in a lot of legal trouble.

The idea is to be ready, willing and able to use your gun any time you draw it but drawing it shouldn't necessarily dictate you have to pull the trigger.
see our instructor in our LTC class told us dont draw your gun to try and scare/intimidate them. if you draw your weapon intend to use it. but unless the situation actually arises, we dont really know how we'll react. (also i might add that our instructor is active LEO and trains dallas SWAT and other officers... so maybe thats what they teach LEOs)
Hopefully, you misunderstood what your instructor told you or that your instructor misspoke. BTW, we are not talking about a military action, the article was written for the benefit of LEOs and citizens, both are civilians. The LEO that thinks they are not a civilian is the scary one that needs to be retrained or encouraged to seek other employment.
Anytime it is remotely possible, de-escalation should be the priority.
Last edited by twomillenium on Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From prone to standing in 1 second or less

#15

Post by Grundy1133 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:56 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:as a civilian, if I find a situation warrants me to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. I may put my hand on my weapon and verbally warn the assailant to stop and back up or drop his knife or whatever the situation may be...but if that doesn't work and I end up drawing my weapon I intend to use it. but still the article is full of good info.
This is your call and you may be legally justified in doing so.

Research going back to the 1970s and updated at least twice indicate that citizens use firearms in self-defense anywhere from 1.5 million to 2.5 million times annually. The vast majority of the time, no shots are fired. It is the rare criminal indeed that will ignore the bore of a firearm and continue with an attack. They exist, but they are the exception not the rule.

Holding an attacker at gunpoint can still be necessary, even if you do shoot. Once the threat is over, your justification to use deadly force no longer exists. If your now-wounded attacker is still alive, then you have to deal with a possible counter-attack.

Aside from legality, I don't want to try to sleep knowing I legally killed someone when I could have simply diffused the situation by displaying my handgun. There's a reason Texas law has Tex. Penal Code §9.04 available.

Again, it's your call and all of us have to make those decisions based upon our training and experience.

Chas.
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
I'm starting to questing everything our instructor taught us... he said that (scenario time) if someone comes to your door rings your door bell and has a baseball bat in his hand and says "im gonna bash your brain in!" that would constitute as justified threat. but according to the highlighted areas, that's not the case?
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