Alcohol and self defense

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ScottDLS
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#16

Post by ScottDLS » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:12 am

If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big He can’t lift it? If you fail to take Communion on a Holy Day of Obligation, but you are on ship and cross the international date line then do, are you still guilty of a mortal sin? Exactly how many angels may dance on the head of a pin? What is the exact blood alcohol concentration under which you are NOT legally intoxicated under Texas law? Canon law? Common law? Napoleonic Code? International law of the sea? :roll:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#17

Post by pushpullpete » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:28 am

wow, that's alot of contemplation

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ScottDLS
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#18

Post by ScottDLS » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:38 am

Hat tip George Carlin for the first two. :tiphat: Apologies to Fr. O’Connor and Sister Antoinette CCHS 1982... :biggrinjester:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#19

Post by Rafe » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:54 am

Many thanks to srothstein for that knowledgeable and informative comment. I learned a couple of things.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#20

Post by ScottDLS » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:11 am

srothstein wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:26 pm
I think there is a combination of things to consider. The two big ones are the criminal case and the civil suit. In the criminal case. I think most of the question in the criminal case is going to be if the shoot was justified or not. If the shoot was clearly justified, I doubt if your being buzzed will make much difference. The same is true if it was clearly not justified. It might make a difference if the shoot is marginal. In a case like that, I can see how a DA can use intoxication to bring into doubt if a marginal shooting was justified at all, especially if it is an anti-gun DA. Consider that the largest problem with drinking alcohol is that it affects judgment. If the shoot was marginal, do you think the DA or jury is going to trust your judgment in a case like that?

Then we have to look at the civil case. Again, in a clear shoot, it will not be a problem. Fortunately, we have a law in Texas that says you cannot be found liable for damages if the shooting was justified. If it was marginal or not justified, you would have no automatic defense to the shooting. Now you have a plaintiff's attorney trying to sway a jury in his favor over yours and he is going to make it look like you were pretty reckless in drinking and then shooting. Was the alcohol giving you liquid courage? Did your drinking make you feel braver and more willing to pull the trigger? It would go on in that vein for a while.

In addition, as one last point, I would like to point out that there is no legal limit for intoxication. It is whenever your BAC is over .08 OR whenever you are not in full possession of your normal mental OR physical faculties due to the intake of any substance. Contrary to common belief, this is not just the judgment of the police officer but it requires some evidence to back up his belief. It is usually going to be based on the results of a standardized field sobriety test. There may be a field breath test on a handheld device. These are not legal for use as evidence in a DWI case but count towards the officer's probable cause. You will be surprised at how little alcohol will cause problems on a SFST.

Based on all of this, I recommend not picking up a firearm after drinking at all. This is not a law and not even a firm rule as there are always exceptions that may come up. And I will freely admit that a big part of this is early training that alcohol and gunpowder do not mix (both parental and military advice). I also admit that I very rarely drink anyway, so this is easy for me to to. It may or may not be harder for anyone else to avoid firearms after a social drink. I certainly would understand if anyone disagreed and went with the actual law (not to carry while intoxicated). This is just my personal recommendation for this area of life.
Steve - A minor point on the definition of intoxication, the EXACT wording from the statute is:
(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or
I realize that "full possession" seems to be implied, but that is not technically what it says. One could make the argument that ANY consumption of alcohol makes one "intoxicated" by this definition, but that seems to be refuted by the fact that a large number of people are acquitted or not charged for DWI with BAC >0 & <0.08. Also in the shooting in the home question, there is no implied consent to a chemical test. And since being armed and intoxicated in one's home is not a crime, it is doubtful law enforcement could get even a rubber stamp "judge in a box" to compel a draw...i.e. no probable cause.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Gator Guy
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#21

Post by Gator Guy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 am

srothstein wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:26 pm
In addition, as one last point, I would like to point out that there is no legal limit for intoxication. It is whenever your BAC is over .08 OR whenever you are not in full possession of your normal mental OR physical faculties due to the intake of any substance.
That's important. Alcohol is only one of many legal things that can cause intoxication according to the 49.01 definition. Prescription medicine can cause intoxication. OTC medicine like NyQuil can cause intoxication. Herbal supplements can cause intoxication. In a literal interpretation of the statute, food poisoning can cause intoxication.
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Abraham
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#22

Post by Abraham » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:26 am

Not every one, but many prosecutors have a 'I will do whatever I have to, to win' attitude.

Being intoxicated with a bellyful of booze at home and a criminal/criminals decide to invade your home and you repel them with your firearm and prevail, doesn't mean because you're at home, minding your own business, drunk as a skunk, that some overzealous prosecutor (most likely in one of our socialist states) won't come after you.

Sound unlikely?

I hope, but wouldn't be 100% convinced some prosecutor wouldn't come after you even here in Texas say in a big city especially...

This is my opinion.

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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#23

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:31 am

Ditto on what srothstein and scottdls said. When CHL first passed in the mid-90's, I recall what one of our instructors half-joked; that from then on we would all be doing our drinking <pause> at home <pause> alone <pause> in the dark. All based on the fact that everything between 0+ and 0.08 BAC is a gray area......
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#24

Post by AndyC » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:35 am

If it came to that, you could argue necessity.

"Yes, I'd had two drinks - in my house - and suddenly, through no fault of my own, was thrust into a situation where I was forced to defend myself."
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auggie mathis
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#25

Post by auggie mathis » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm

everyone has there own opinion but for me if I am carrying I choose not to drink at all .


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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#26

Post by Abraham » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:52 pm

Auggie,

I completely agree if out and about carrying. No drinking at all for me. Not a glass of wine at restaurant with dinner or a beer. I don't do it and I'm not a teetotaler. I just think it wise to do without when out and about.

If you carry at home and want to drink, what then?

Put all your firearms in your safe?

Not me.


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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#27

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:01 pm

Abraham wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:26 am
Not every one, but many prosecutors have a 'I will do whatever I have to, to win' attitude.

Being intoxicated with a bellyful of booze at home and a criminal/criminals decide to invade your home and you repel them with your firearm and prevail, doesn't mean because you're at home, minding your own business, drunk as a skunk, that some overzealous prosecutor (most likely in one of our socialist states) won't come after you.

Sound unlikely?

I hope, but wouldn't be 100% convinced some prosecutor wouldn't come after you even here in Texas say in a big city especially...

This is my opinion.
:iagree:

But if you do happen to find yourself drunk, at home, when a BG breaks down your front door, you will have to decide whether it is better to defend your family and face the legal consequences, or hope that the BG doesn't plan to do all that much harm to you and yours.

The safest choice is to never have any alcohol, then you will only be in this situation if you happen to be on meds that impair your judgment.
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Abraham
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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#28

Post by Abraham » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:38 pm

Soccerdad1995,

You and I most often agree and your point also applies to eating ice cream, donuts, cheeseburgers, smoking, long distance bike rides by me lonesome. Also not regularly exercising, etc. Not the safest choice in one life... High cholesterol and not exercising are not safe either.

It's a personal choice.

The safest choice isn't one I always find acceptable.

Heck, I used to sky dive a little, scuba dive a lot, all over the world, sea kayak into very remote areas by myself, travel over seas by myself, wade fish in very remote areas by myself...I'll stop there, but I've done many, many things considered unsafe by lots of folk.

Why?

My choice.

Now, getting pie eyed at home?

If I want to. My choice. I won't have my life dominated by 'what might happen, therefore it'll shape life'.

Am I gambling?

Sure, my life, my gamble.

I don't live my life by what may be considered 'the safest approach'.

Yes, I'm often cantankerous when it comes to certain things...and I'm not speaking of drinking at home, but choices that are mine and mine alone without cringing about 'what if'.

The heck with that!

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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#29

Post by Oldgringo » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:31 pm

Abraham wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:38 pm
Soccerdad1995,

You and I most often agree and your point also applies to eating ice cream, donuts, cheeseburgers, smoking, long distance bike rides by me lonesome. Also not regularly exercising, etc. Not the safest choice in one life... High cholesterol and not exercising are not safe either.

It's a personal choice.

The safest choice isn't one I always find acceptable.

Heck, I used to sky dive a little, scuba dive a lot, all over the world, sea kayak into very remote areas by myself, travel over seas by myself, wade fish in very remote areas by myself...I'll stop there, but I've done many, many things considered unsafe by lots of folk.

Why?

My choice.

Now, getting pie eyed at home?

If I want to. My choice. I won't have my life dominated by 'what might happen, therefore it'll shape life'.

Am I gambling?

Sure, my life, my gamble.

I don't live my life by what may be considered 'the safest approach'.

Yes, I'm often cantankerous when it comes to certain things...and I'm not speaking of drinking at home, but choices that are mine and mine alone without cringing about 'what if'.

The heck with that!
My life has not been as adventuresome as has Abraham's; however, I tend to agree with him. Carpe Diem, wisely and in moderation!

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Re: Alcohol and self defense

#30

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:22 am

I am now a "T" Totaler but I would just say that I bet I could be drunk as Cooty Brown and if I shoot some bad guy who busts into my home, I go free.

Being drunk does not cancel my right to defend myself. It affects judgement but if the situation is obvious self defense, I bet a person walks.
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