"The Untold History of the USA"

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"The Untold History of the USA"

#1

Post by Oldgringo » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:05 pm

The above Netflix, multi-part Oliver Stone series, "The Untold History of the USA" is very interesting indeed. Of course, if you're not interested in American/World history and/or not of an age to have lived through many of these historic events, it would be lost on you.


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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#2

Post by WTR » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:11 pm

Oldgringo wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:05 pm
The above Netflix, multi-part Oliver Stone series, "The Untold History of the USA" is very interesting indeed. Of course, if you're not interested in American/World history and/or not of an age to have lived through many of these historic events, it would be lost on you.
Anything Oliver Stone produces I consider fiction. He wouldn’t know true history if it bit him in the butt.

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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#3

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:53 pm

WTR wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:11 pm
Oldgringo wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:05 pm
The above Netflix, multi-part Oliver Stone series, "The Untold History of the USA" is very interesting indeed. Of course, if you're not interested in American/World history and/or not of an age to have lived through many of these historic events, it would be lost on you.
Anything Oliver Stone produces I consider fiction. He wouldn’t know true history if it bit him in the butt.
I saw that show in the list of offerings, and declined to watch it for the same reason. Stone is from the Howard Zinn school of historical analysis.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#4

Post by anygunanywhere » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:44 am

Kind of like watching something about Jesus our Savior on Discovery Channel and believing everything.
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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#5

Post by Oldgringo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:36 am

Interesting, he goes after Republicans and Democrats with equal zeal. In fact, he doesn't seem to like anybody very much?

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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#6

Post by der Teufel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:54 am

I've watched part of it. It's interesting, but it does seem to have a liberal bias. For instance, in the segments about WW2 Stone seems to think we should have been more trusting and helpful to the Russians during and after the war.
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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#7

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:48 am

Bottom line, Stone is a film maker, not a historian. He has opinions, and he has a bully pulpit. But that doesn’t make him a historian. It doesn’t even make him a historically knowledgeable lay person.
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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#8

Post by Paladin » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am

While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
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Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#9

Post by WTR » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:20 am

Paladin wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am
While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
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Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
I thank him for his service. However, that does mean I need to believe or watch or give credence to his revisionist history.


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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#10

Post by Redneck_Buddha » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:43 am

Hate to sound closed minded, but "Platoon", "The Doors", and "Midnight Express" are about the only of his works I have ever enthusiastically consumed.

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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#11

Post by Oldgringo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am

I was a little too young to remember much about WWI, WW2 or the Korean 'Peace Action'.

I do remember the Viet Nam invasion and its consequences. I got my Draft Notice in July of '66. Had I not been a 24 year-old, full-time college student with a pregnant wife, I would have seen that debacle up close and personal. Oliver Stone, et al, are spot on correct vis a vis the Viet Nam invasion. It should never have happened.


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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#12

Post by ralewis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:36 am

Paladin wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am
While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
wiki

Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
I watched it a few months ago, and I thought it was really interesting. Great to have another perspective. I disagreed with some of his theories and conclusions, but the footage was great. I especially liked the World War II coverage. It's actually great to have a different perspective. I visited the Imperial War Museum in London a few years ago, and it was really interesting to see WW2 covered from a non-American perspective.

I concur with another responder on the thread here that Stone goes after everyone in power in this thing (Democrats and Republicans). I enjoyed the contrarian view even if I didn't always agree.

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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#13

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Paladin wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am
While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
wiki

Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
I’ve never denied him his right to an opinion. I’ve never disrespected his service. My own dad became a confirmed pacifist after his combat experience in WW2. I never disputed his right to be a pacifist, as he had paid for that right with his own blood. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with either my dad's pacifism, or the liberal political opinions he held. Similarly, I don’t have to agree with Oliver Stone's opinions, and I can disagree with them without dishonoring his service. What I’ve learned over the years is that a great deal of his opinions are horse puckey.

He’s enough of a conspiracy theorist that I tend to discount most of what he says.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
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My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.


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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#14

Post by ralewis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:00 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:42 pm
Paladin wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am
While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
wiki

Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
I’ve never denied him his right to an opinion. I’ve never disrespected his service. My own dad became a confirmed pacifist after his combat experience in WW2. I never disputed his right to be a pacifist, as he had paid for that right with his own blood. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with either my dad's pacifism, or the liberal political opinions he held. Similarly, I don’t have to agree with Oliver Stone's opinions, and I can disagree with them without dishonoring his service. What I’ve learned over the years is that a great deal of his opinions are horse puckey.

He’s enough of a conspiracy theorist that I tend to discount most of what he says.
The story about how Truman got the Dem nomination was fascinating, but I was left skeptical. Stone seemed to be saying it was a coin flip that resulted in the circumstances leading to the use of Atomic weapons. That seemed like either a serious exaggeration or gross over simplification.

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Re: "The Untold History of the USA"

#15

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:06 pm

ralewis wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:00 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:42 pm
Paladin wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am
While I don't always agree with Oliver Stone, I do respect the guy as a combat vet:
In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served in Vietnam with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division and was twice wounded in action.[22] He was then transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to drive for a motorized infantry unit of the division until November 1968.[25] For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for valor, the Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.
wiki

Oliver Stone put it all on the line for this country and he deserves the right to his opinion. The parts of the series I've watched have been worth seeing.
I’ve never denied him his right to an opinion. I’ve never disrespected his service. My own dad became a confirmed pacifist after his combat experience in WW2. I never disputed his right to be a pacifist, as he had paid for that right with his own blood. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with either my dad's pacifism, or the liberal political opinions he held. Similarly, I don’t have to agree with Oliver Stone's opinions, and I can disagree with them without dishonoring his service. What I’ve learned over the years is that a great deal of his opinions are horse puckey.

He’s enough of a conspiracy theorist that I tend to discount most of what he says.
The story about how Truman got the Dem nomination was fascinating, but I was left skeptical. Stone seemed to be saying it was a coin flip that resulted in the circumstances leading to the use of Atomic weapons. That seemed like either a serious exaggeration or gross over simplification.
The coin toss story is nonsense. There was a spirited debate at the top levels about how to use the bomb.

One faction argued that the US should warn the Japanese leadership that we would drop a demonstration bomb on one of the many tiny islands that dot the Japanese coastline just offshore, so they could see for themselves what would happen to them if they did not surrender.

The other faction argued, truthfully, that we only had two bombs ready to go, and of them, Little Boy, was an untested design. (Fat Man was based on the Trinity bomb that was tested a month before the Nagasaki bomb was dropped.) They argued that it was a foolish waste of resource to drop a demonstration bomb because: (a) if they dropped Little Boy as a demo and it didn’t work, then the demonstration might bolster Japanese resolve to never surrender; and (b) if they dropped Fat Man but Little Boy was still a dud, then they’d be left with ZERO bombs to follow up with if the Japanese refused to surrender. As it turned out, the Little Boy bomb was hampered by its design and only functioned with some small fraction of efficiency of its total potential. Fat Man was the more powerful and efficient design of the two, and American nukes were based on that design for the next few years after war's end. Ultimately, the decision to nuke japan was driven by casualty estimates if a land invasion were required, and in a perverse way, the bombings were the most merciful alternative.

The mainland Japanese were well set to resist an invasion. A post-surrender inventory of the remaining Japanese fighting capability was sobering. Pre-invasion casualty estimates for both US troops and Japanese civilians were quite high, and in retrospect, probably too low. Total Allied casualties were estimated to be as high as in the millions IF the Japanese civilian population joined their military in repelling and resisting the invasion. Without Japanese civilians fighting, Allied casualties were estimated in the hundreds of thousands. One of my dad's friends in the Corps was in Naval Intelligence, and was one of the first Americans ashore on the Japanese mainland immediately after the surrender. He told my dad that the degree of pre-invasion Japanese preparation he saw was shocking. Their military were ready, and still better equipped than the Allies thought they would be, and the civilian population was nothing if not obedient to their emperor and warlords. The Japanese victims of the atomic bombs—both the dead and the injured—were a considerably smaller number than would have resulted from a forced invasion.

The 3rd Marine Division, of which my dad was a part, was part of V Corps, and V Corps was tasked with landing on D-day along the SW coast of Kyūshū. This time, instead of being held in reserve and coming ashore 3 days later like he did at Iwo Jima, he would have been in the assault waves, and there is some likelihood that I might not be here typing this today. When I once spoke with him about the atomic bombings, he was unrepentant. His words to me were, "The Japanese wrote a check they couldn’t cash. S—-w 'em. Without those bombs, neither of us might be alive today to talk about it." He did not hate the Japanese after the war, as so many veterans of the pacific did, but he was convinced (and I agree) that the atomic bombings were the most merciful ending the Japanese had any right to expect, and it would have been a LOT worse for everyone if they had not been dropped.

There’s also the "race" angle. People have charged the US with racism for nuking the Japanese, but not the Germans—as if this were a conscious choice made by racist hooligans in the Pentagon and the White House.....but all one has to do is examine the timeline and see that this is utter nonsense.

May 8, 1845: General Keitel (Germany) signs the Allies' surrender terms, and the war in Europe is over.

July 16, 1945: The US explodes the world's first and, at that time, ONLY existing Atomic bomb.

August 6, 1945: The "Little Boy" bomb is dropped on Hiroshima. It is one of only two prototype bombs in existence at the time.

August 9, 1945: The "Fat Man" bomb is dropped on Nagasaki. It’s the only remaining nuke in the US inventory at that time.

Fact: We didn't even have a functioning bomb to test until AFTER Germany had surrendered. There’s literally no way the US could have nuked Germany even if we had wanted to. The Japanese were given ample warning BEFORE the first bomb was dropped that a terrible new city-killer weapon was coming, and that we would not use it if they surrendered unconditionally. They refused. They dragged the war on for 3 more long months after the German surrender. They got nuked. That’s on them.
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