6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester

[Paladin]

6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester: A Battle of Ballistic Coefficients

Military and LE Application

In October of 2017, US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) tested the performance of the long-serving 7.62x51mm NATO against the 260 Remington and the 6.5 Creedmoor and the results are astounding to say the least! It was determined that military snipers using the 6.5 Creedmoor had DOUBLE the hit probability at 1000 meters.

Furthermore, they ascertained that the 6.5 Creedmoor:

Increased their shooters’ effective range by approximately 33%
Experienced 40% less wind drift
Had 30% less recoil
Delivered approximately 50% more kinetic energy to the target

It really is that good.

[Rafe]

Thanks for that. The article also includes a brief history of each cartridge and I learned some stuff about how the 6.5 Creedmoor came to be.

[patterson]

I thought the military had adopted the new .277 Fury

[powerboatr]

yes its a good round, for those long range shots
but my 308
i stay around 150 yards max. to hard to see much farther in the trees

[Rafe]

I thought the military had adopted the new .277 Fury

Yep, it did. At least, the Army did...but it's called simply "6.8x51mm" rather than the much cooler ".277 SIG Fury." It came along with the choice of the new battle rifle formats, SIG's XM5 and XM250 LMG.

The Fury can't really be a fury, though, without the hybrid case design that has a stainless steel base joined by an aluminum washer to a brass body. Gotta have that to handle the positively stupid chamber pressure of 80,000 psi. By comparison, the NA SAAMI max for both the .308 and the 6.5 Creedmoor is 62,000 psi. So to be a fury it has to be a special cartridge that needs to be used only in a firearm built to handle it. I'm honestly not sure if that particular combination is available for civilian purchase yet.

But evidently the cartridge can be conventional all-brass if it's downloaded to a pressure of 65,000 psi. Wait! I've got it! We could call that the ".277 SIG Annoyed"; TAM wouldn't be able to get a trademark, but maybe at least a promotional arrangement? But it wouldn't produce these kinds of ballistics:


I'm in the same club as powerboater, though. I need something that can reach out effectively a few hundred yards (but not long range distances), and my preference for that was a well-established NATO caliber that had wide availability (including milsurp cases), relatively low cost, and that had a bunch of different guns that used it. Mind you, if someone wanted to give me a 6.5 Creedmoor or a SIG XM5, I certainly wouldn't turn it down. Just sayin'.

[Paladin]

1,100 yards with a .308 on day 1:



.308 is more subject to winds, drop, and transonic effects... but it can still reach out there.

Mr. Mountains and Mullets left out one important step to getting first round hits at long range. The Tall Target Test:



Mr. Mountains and Mullets should have also used G7 coefficients as they are far MORE accurate. Applied Ballistics has an app that will "True" your ballistic model to your particular rifle/bullet... which is the MOST accurate... like 1,600 yard hits on a silhouette with a .308 accurate.

[The Annoyed Man]

I thought the military had adopted the new .277 Fury

Yep, it did. At least, the Army did...but it's called simply "6.8x51mm" rather than the much cooler ".277 SIG Fury." It came along with the choice of the new battle rifle formats, SIG's XM5 and XM250 LMG.

The Fury can't really be a fury, though, without the hybrid case design that has a stainless steel base joined by an aluminum washer to a brass body. Gotta have that to handle the positively stupid chamber pressure of 80,000 psi. By comparison, the NA SAAMI max for both the .308 and the 6.5 Creedmoor is 62,000 psi. So to be a fury it has to be a special cartridge that needs to be used only in a firearm built to handle it. I'm honestly not sure if that particular combination is available for civilian purchase yet.

But evidently the cartridge can be conventional all-brass if it's downloaded to a pressure of 65,000 psi. Wait! I've got it! We could call that the ".277 SIG Annoyed"; TAM wouldn't be able to get a trademark, but maybe at least a promotional arrangement? But it wouldn't produce these kinds of ballistics:


I'm in the same club as powerboater, though. I need something that can reach out effectively a few hundred yards (but not long range distances), and my preference for that was a well-established NATO caliber that had wide availability (including milsurp cases), relatively low cost, and that had a bunch of different guns that used it. Mind you, if someone wanted to give me a 6.5 Creedmoor or a SIG XM5, I certainly wouldn't turn it down. Just sayin'.

I’m still not convinced that the full-house 6.8x51 hybrid load is good for rifles. I’m pretty sure that a steady diet of it will burn out barrels in 1000 rounds or less, based on its ballistic similarity to the .264 Remington Magnum…which IS a barrel burner. Maybe someday I’ll buy a 6.5 Creedmoor, but for now I’ve got 3 good rifles chambered in .308, one of which I know for a fact will shoot .5 MOA at 800 yards because I’ve done it with that rifle.

Oh, and I expect a royalty for every cartridge of .277 TAM sold!

[Rafe]

I wondered if you'd see that. I really do like the idea of the .277 Fury and the .277 Annoyed...but somehow I feel it might be a tough sell to the SIG marketing department.

Yeah; I don't see how the Fury could be anything but a barrel-burner. The extractor is also working on steel instead of a softer metal, so it'll be interesting to see what the real-world application looks like over time in terms of frequency of extractor replacement. But I kinda bet the Army spec didn't care too much about those factors.

And to be clear, I personally consider 800 yards to be a get-in-the-car-and-drive-there distance. I didn't really misspeak, but I messed up the context when I wrote, "I need something that can reach out effectively a few hundred yards (but not long range distances), and my preference for that was a well-established NATO caliber..."

It certainly isn't that the .308 can't shoot long distances, it's just that I don't shoot long distances and don't need the kinds of cartridge/rifle technologies that do a better job of getting me out over a half-mile. I have huge respect for those who can knock down an 8-inch steel plate from a mile away, but it is, alas, a small-arms skillset I will never have.

Besides. Somebody in a position of authority once told me if I were worried about those kinds of distances that I'd need an F-16.

[The Annoyed Man]

I wondered if you'd see that. I really do like the idea of the .277 Fury and the .277 Annoyed...but somehow I feel it might be a tough sell to the SIG marketing department.

Yeah; I don't see how the Fury could be anything but a barrel-burner. The extractor is also working on steel instead of a softer metal, so it'll be interesting to see what the real-world application looks like over time in terms of frequency of extractor replacement. But I kinda bet the Army spec didn't care too much about those factors.

And to be clear, I personally consider 800 yards to be a get-in-the-car-and-drive-there distance. I didn't really misspeak, but I messed up the context when I wrote, "I need something that can reach out effectively a few hundred yards (but not long range distances), and my preference for that was a well-established NATO caliber..."

It certainly isn't that the .308 can't shoot long distances, it's just that I don't shoot long distances and don't need the kinds of cartridge/rifle technologies that do a better job of getting me out over a half-mile. I have huge respect for those who can knock down an 8-inch steel plate from a mile away, but it is, alas, a small-arms skillset I will never have.

Besides. Somebody in a position of authority once told me if I were worried about those kinds of distances that I'd need an F-16.

Yeah, when I first got interested enough to hire someone to teach me long range shooting, he was a retired MARSOC marine and former scout sniper. He asked me how far out there I wanted to get that day, and I told him that I’d be ecstatic if I could hit at 1,000 yards, but I’d be pretty happy with 800 yards. I also told him that I wasn’t sure if my rifle would be good for 1,000 yards, and he laughed and told me that he had kills at 1,300 yards in Afghanistan with a rifle much like mine.

Anywho… I worked my way out to 800 yards, and then I was too spent to continue for that day. (I fired about 150 rounds from the prone of 175 grain SMKs with a MV of 2713 fps/2860 ft-lbs, and by the end of the day I was pretty bruised and beat up…see picture below…) But I was pretty pumped. I had been busting 4.3" clay pigeons (aim small, miss small) on the 800 yard berm and I was pretty pleased with myself. I had it in my mind that I would go back in a week or two and try to get out to 1,000 yards, but I never did. It wasn’t a deliberate decision not to do it. It was more like the realization that 800 yards is just shy of a half mile away—a pretty long poke—and if I needed to shoot something/someone further away than that, then I probably didn’t really need to shoot it.

Anyway, a 6.5 Creedmoor is pretty tempting, in no small part because it wouldn’t beat me up like heavy .308s do. Alternatively, I could just put a better buttpad on my rifle stock, or buy a chassis for my rifle and customize it to fit me better. But the allure of .308-like power in a milder shooting cartridge, with longer range and better terminal ballistics is pretty strong.

What to do? What to do?