Pump Shotguns Carried by Many Special Forces

[Crash]

Although I often read of the semi-automatic shotgun as the preferred choice for defensive purposes, I know that many of the premier special forces/anti terrorist groups use pump actions. The Israeli Yamam, the GSG-9, and the SAS all use the Remington 870, as does the French GIGN, although the French also sometimes use the SPAS-12 semi-automatic. (GIGN also sometimes uses .357 revovers). Our Navy Seals use the Mossberg M-590 pump.

If all of these elite units use a pump, seems to me that they would not be too bad a choice for home defense.

What say ye

Crash

[carlson1]

I don't think a pump is a bad choice for SD or HD. Neither do I think a semi is a bad choice. They both have their pros and cons. Just one problem the pump is easy to short stroke. The semi may not cycle. It boils down to which one do you practice and train with.

[jkurtz]

Also consider what they are being used for. Just because it is good for XYZ unit does not mean it fits your individual needs. I wasn't any any super secret squirrel unit, but we also used pump action shotguns when I was in the military and deployed. However, we weren't carrying them with the intent of engaging people. Their purpose was to shoot locks.

[ScottDLS]

More weapons of war that have no place on our streets.

[Skiprr]

I don't think a pump is a bad choice for SD or HD. Neither do I think a semi is a bad choice. They both have their pros and cons. Just one problem the pump is easy to short stroke. The semi may not cycle. It boils down to which one do you practice and train with.

Very much agree. The manual at arms for most pump shotguns is similar, as is the one for most semi-autos (there are some wide variances in the mix, guns like the Saiga for example). But other than a few administrative operations, pumps and semis do differ.

If you want to shoot 3-gun and be competitive, I think semi-auto is the only way to go. When you're shooting for time, it's hard to argue that manually pumping the next round into the chamber takes more time than an autoloader. But me, I love my 870s. Have a Mossberg, as well (only real operational difference is the safety). I like the 870 because I know it and trust it.

Regardless of the shotgun platform (again, except detachable magazine guns like the Saiga) I think there are some operational skills that can be overlooked when folks consider it as a home defense firearm. Things like proper use of a side-saddle (primer should face down, not up), speed loading, and shell swapping (rapidly placing a different round in the chamber, most likely a situational-specific slug).

That said, I don't use an 870 as my primary HD gun. I prefer an AR.

[C-dub]

Consider the user. IIRC, the Marine Corps began using the Benelli M4 because they were having issues with many short stroking the pumps because they got excited or were smaller and or not enough training time with them when they got into a room/building clearing event for real. Whatever the real reason was, they ended up getting Benelli's.

So, for SFs folks, who do a lot of training, a pump may be the simplest and most reliable in the field when your life depends on it. For home defense, your life obviously depends on it, but it also isn't being carried through a jungle or desert or ocean to get to the fight either. I like to shoot skeet, trap, and 5-stand and my Benelli as been more reliable than any other semiauto I've seen shoot at any of my club's matches so far and even several O/U shotguns. The shotgun itself has yet to malfunction in any way after three years. Now, I've forgotten and left the safety on a couple times or had issues loading it properly during the first year I had it. This was the first shotgun I'd ever fired and still is the only semiauto. I have now fired a bolt and a couple pumps and one breakover, but no double barrel shotguns yet.

However, like Skiprr, my first choice for HD is not my shotgun, but rather my M4 carbine. Second is the Glock 21SF. I don't even keep the shotgun loaded in the house. It is unloaded and in the safe.

[Jusme]

As most of you know from earlier posts, I am a huge proponent of pump shotguns for HD. I keep one by my bed at all times. At inside home distances, it is a devastating weapon. #00 buck, #1 buck, or slugs will bring the fight to an end quickly.

That being said, there are limitations with a shotgun:
#1 round count, most standard shotguns will only hold 5+1 rounds,
#2 recoil, a 12 gauge shotgun has significant recoil, and will definitely affect follow up shots.
#3 not easily maneuvered through tight spaces,even with shorter barrels clearing a home with a shotgun, takes practice, to execute properly
#4 Not suited for one handed operation. If one hand is disabled, or you have to move children to safety, it is very difficult to manipulate one handed.
#5 Shotguns must be aimed, despite popular myths, shot from even a short barreled gun, only spread about 1 inch per yard, across a 12-15' room it is still a very small pattern.

Everyone will have to decide for themselves whether a pump shotgun should be their choice for HD, and understand its advantages and limitations.

[parabelum]

I like pumps. Never had issue with short stroking, knock on wood. For home defense I use my KSG loaded with 12 3" 00 buck shots. I'd be nervous to use either my AR or AK (or any of my handguns for that matter) in home defense situation for two reasons:

1. I'd hate for bullets to go through walls, putting rest of my family in the potential path of fire;

2. I can cover more intruder real estate even with tired eyes easily;

I find KSG to be great. It works flawlessly. Holds 12+1 of 3" shells, which is a lot of firepower out of a relatively small package. I shoot it well. Due to its size, KSG is very maneuverable, making it a great choice when going through my ninja moves

[Glockster]

I don't think a pump is a bad choice for SD or HD. Neither do I think a semi is a bad choice. They both have their pros and cons. Just one problem the pump is easy to short stroke. The semi may not cycle. It boils down to which one do you practice and train with.

Which brings up a question - how often do you need to do what kind of training? I've long thought about having a shotgun of some kind for HD but am hesitant because, frankly, I don't know how I'd become and remain proficient with it. I've checked into ranges and there just aren't any options close by to make it easy to do that. So if you're not able to actually shoot it except for once or twice a year, is it still an option to consider?

[Jusme]

I like pumps. Never had issue with short stroking, knock on wood. For home defense I use my KSG loaded with 12 3" 00 buck shots. I'd be nervous to use either my AR or AK (or any of my handguns for that matter) in home defense situation for two reasons:

1. I'd hate for bullets to go through walls, putting rest of my family in the potential path of fire;

2. I can cover more intruder real estate even with tired eyes easily;

I find KSG to be great. It works flawlessly. Holds 12+1 of 3" shells, which is a lot of firepower out of a relatively small package. I shoot it well. Due to its size, KSG is very maneuverable, making it a great choice when going through my ninja moves

Don't be mislead regarding the penetration of a shotgun through walls. They are just as deadly, if not more so than handgun, or AR rounds. See the following tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... and-walls/

Just like anything else shot placement is key, put all of the rounds into BG and over penetration is not an issue.

[parabelum]

Jusme,

You're right. Shotgun does in fact penetrate through the walls just as AR, but my thinking was that at the end of the path the AR round tends to carry more velocity and energy behind a single exit point, whereas buckshot will disperse the velocity/energy, and not be as powerful coming out of one exit point, albeit it will have nine "smaller" exit points...each weighing ~53 grains however

Dadgummit, now I'm going to have to load lighter loads. Wheels are spinning.

[Pawpaw]

Just like anything else shot placement is key, put all of the rounds into BG and over penetration is not an issue.

That is not entirely true. 00 buck has a long history of passing completely through a BG. That's one of the reasons I use #1 buckshot. Another reason is that 15 #1 pellets do a lot more damage than 8 or 9 00's do.

When I was thinking about a shotgun for HD, I realized I had zero experience with a pump. I did not want to be "that guy" that short shucked a pump when it counted most, so I bought a Mossberg 930 SPX semi-auto. I then proceeded to wring it out to prove 100% function. I found I can put all 8 rounds of buckshot on a B-27 target in about 2.5 - 3 seconds.

I have since acquired a Mossberg 500 pump for hunting, where short stroking won't get me killed.

Side note: My semi-auto kicks less with buckshot than my pump does with birdshot.

[Jusme]

Just like anything else shot placement is key, put all of the rounds into BG and over penetration is not an issue.

That is not entirely true. 00 buck has a long history of passing completely through a BG. That's one of the reasons I use #1 buckshot. Another reason is that 15 #1 pellets do a lot more damage than 8 or 9 00's do.

When I was thinking about a shotgun for HD, I realized I had zero experience with a pump. I did not want to be "that guy" that short shucked a pump when it counted most, so I bought a Mossberg 930 SPX semi-auto. I then proceeded to wring it out to prove 100% function. I found I can put all 8 rounds of buckshot on a B-27 target in about 2.5 - 3 seconds.

I have since acquired a Mossberg 500 pump for hunting, where short stroking won't get me killed.

Side note: My semi-auto kicks less with buckshot than my pump does with birdshot.

Yeah I agree about #1 buck, that' what I keep loaded in mine I have some #00 in the side saddle as well as slugs. I have no problem with a semi auto, I have just used a pump so much, that it is second nature, in fact I was shooting my buddy's Benelli semi auto, and kept trying to rack the slide. He really got a kick out of watching me.
I do practice a lot with my shotgun, clearing rooms in the dark, practicing tactical reloads etc. I don't have an issue with recoil, unless I'm shooting 3" magnum. I can see one advantage to a semi-auto and that is if you were forced to use it one handed.

[C-dub]

I don't think a pump is a bad choice for SD or HD. Neither do I think a semi is a bad choice. They both have their pros and cons. Just one problem the pump is easy to short stroke. The semi may not cycle. It boils down to which one do you practice and train with.

Which brings up a question - how often do you need to do what kind of training? I've long thought about having a shotgun of some kind for HD but am hesitant because, frankly, I don't know how I'd become and remain proficient with it. I've checked into ranges and there just aren't any options close by to make it easy to do that. So if you're not able to actually shoot it except for once or twice a year, is it still an option to consider?

FWIW, the training/familiarity that I think is required is similar to what would be done in a real HD scenario. Rapid fire would be a requirement so that short stroking is not an issue. Moving and shooting would be very helpful as would engaging multiple (2-4) targets. Also reloading just in case that is needed. Pressure can be added to the training/practice by doing all this on the clock or by having someone else watch and critique or even yell things at you while you're engaging your targets.

Of course, more often the better, but I'd think at least a few times a year. Probably more often at first to iron out any wrinkles that are discovered. And if you have a light mounted, moving through your house or property at night with the light can be helpful to know what the different shadows are and what light gets reflected off of which surfaces and how.

[Skiprr]

I don't think a pump is a bad choice for SD or HD. Neither do I think a semi is a bad choice. They both have their pros and cons. Just one problem the pump is easy to short stroke. The semi may not cycle. It boils down to which one do you practice and train with.

Which brings up a question - how often do you need to do what kind of training? I've long thought about having a shotgun of some kind for HD but am hesitant because, frankly, I don't know how I'd become and remain proficient with it. I've checked into ranges and there just aren't any options close by to make it easy to do that. So if you're not able to actually shoot it except for once or twice a year, is it still an option to consider?

Sure it's still viable, even if you don't have a range where you can rapid-fire, shoot on the move, practice low-light conditions, etc. Not really any different than what a lot of folks face with handgun or rifle practice.

The easiest solution? Snap-Caps and dry-fire practice! Other than recoil management and knowing where your shot will actually land, for a pump shotgun you can practice just about everything else using Snap-Caps. 'Course, that means you need to buy not just a couple of them, but several. Enough to (at least mostly) charge the tube plus, if you use a side-saddle or any other carry means for spare shells, a few more for that purpose.

Obviously Snap-Cap practice is not as functional with a semi-auto. Still useful for some purposes, but with a pump you get to cycle the action and pull the trigger.