TN: Enhanced CHL proposed

[philip964]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/tennessee-bil ... d=82757071

ABC says will cause "Wild West".

If Texas passes something like this, I know I would have to have it, but would it come with a real badge.

[puma guy]

That video starts with a bald faced lie about firearm homicide rates in the US being the highest in developed countries. Apparently Honduras, Venezuela, El Salvador, Guatemala, Jamaica, Brazil, Columbia and Panama are undeveloped countries. The firearm suicide rate per 100M in the US is almost twice as high as the homicides. The firearms deaths are almost exclusively homicides in all those "undeveloped" countries. I stopped watching at that point.

[Odinvalknir]

Regardless of what they claim crime stats are, or "muh gun violence" arguments. This doesn't seem like something we NEED in Texas. Our CHL already allows us to carry into places that the regular person cannot. From reading the article it appears TN just wants a less restrictive CHL, and obviously to suck more money out of its citizens by charging them another $100 ontop of whatever fees there are for the license to have our "rights".

It may not be a popular opinion to some of the "back the blue" types. But I have always been a proponent of "If its concealed, no one knows you are armed anyway" and "Mine and my family's lives are more important to me than your stupid sign and politics". Here in Tx thankfully, carrying past those idiotic 30.06/07 signs is akin to a traffic ticket, and doing it multiple times (only if you're caught) it never increases. You just get fined every time. So long as you aren't flashing your CONCEALED firearm at everybody saying I HAVE A CHL EVERYONE LOOK AT ME!

Gun laws are unconstitutional, requiring a license to carry a firearm is unconstitutional, requiring a 4473 to purchase a firearm is unconstitutional. And the law agencies who enforce these unconstitutional laws are just as bad. The way we win against over reaching draconian agencies and laws like the BATFE is by mass disobedience.

[Paladin]

LOL, the legacy media needs to update their tired old "wild west" propaganda. This is what the bill actually does:

State Sen. Joey Hensley, who introduced the state Senate version of the bill, told ABC News that the goal of the bill was to allow enhanced gun permit carriers to carry their weapons into locations where off-duty law enforcement enter, such as a store or restaurant that prohibits guns inside their business. Hensley said the bill would not allow enhanced permit holders to bring their weapons into courts or schools.

"This is trying to open it up so that people who go to the extreme to get this extra permit can have the right to defend themselves in more places," the senator told ABC News Thursday.

That is not making them law enforcement at all.

This is ridiculous as well:

The state's largest police union, however, told ABC news that it is "adamantly opposed to this bill in its current form."

Scottie DeLashmit, the president of Tennessee State Lodge for the Fraternal Order of Police, said police officers in the state "spend countless hours" on the gun range honing their marksmanship skills and must qualify annually with the same weapons.

No offense, but I have to imagine Tennessee is the same as most other states where police officers get around 40 hours of firearms training, which isn't all spent on shooting(cleaning/use of force/etc). Studies about LEO vs. recreational vs. novice shooters are extraordinarily eye opening:

The real risks during deadly police shootouts: Accuracy of the naive shooter

Participants were separated by firearms experience into the following groups: expert (completed law enforcement firearms course, n = 83), intermediate (recreational experience, n = 71) and novice (minimal/no experience, n = 93). All subjects were tested for accuracy at target locations from 3 to 75 ft. For all locations, no difference was found in accuracy between expert and intermediate groups (p > 0.30). Experts and intermediates had better results than novices on all locations (p < 0.05) except from 3 to 15 ft. Alarmingly, experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. Finally, novices and intermediate shooters were more likely to hit head locations from 3 ft (57%), whereas experts mainly hit the body location (78%). The results of this study indicate that officers had no advantage over intermediate shooters and a small advantage over novices.

Note that this study artificially boosts the "law enforcement" category by combining Law Enforcement with military (with handgun training) and then calling everyone in the category law enforcement. I can only think of ONE reason for the authors to do that... because without adding military the "law enforcement" numbers are significantly worse. In his book Bill Rogers indicates that historically many law enforcement organizations didn't even practice drawing from the holster.

I would LOVE to see a study of students who when through the NRA series of Personal Protection courses vs. these other groups, but I think I already know the answer. The NRA trains students to use barricades, holsters, etc.

[Paladin]

There are some really bad implications about Tennessee State Lodge for the Fraternal Order of Police's statements.

#1 Opposing this bill they are appearing to oppose Constitutional rights to carry in stores and restaurants
#2 Crime is very high right now, and opposing this bill they are taking full responsibility for citizen's safety in stores and restaurants... which they are already failing at
#3 They do not appear to see or admit the serious training deficiencies present in their own organization. If I were them I would welcome law abiding citizens taking some personal responsibility for their own safety and get my own house in order instead of making outrageous claims about how police training is SO much better than armed citizens.

These union statements are not unusual, and are narrow and shortsighted. If only the police can protect you, you are dependent on the police union for protection, no matter how bad the police training and protection is.

I would hope in the 21st century a better understanding that we are all against violent crime and that police need partnerships with communities to work together against violent crime would prevail.

[puma guy]

No offense, but I have to imagine Tennessee is the same as most other states where police officers get around 40 hours of firearms training, which isn't all spent on shooting(cleaning/use of force/etc). Studies about LEO vs. recreational vs. novice shooters are extraordinarily eye opening:

I talked with the firearms instructor for our local PD about range time officers do after Cadet Class training; he rarely sees them again. While they are required to qualify annually and are allowed 50 rounds of free ammo a month to practice he said "very few" when I asked him how many actually show up at the range to practice. Our PD has a very nice training facility and range that includes a situation room complex with bullet absorbing walls that the SWAT team uses, but he said that's different than the rank and file who show up to practice monthly on the range.

[flechero]

Scottie DeLashmit, the president of Tennessee State Lodge for the Fraternal Order of Police, said police officers in the state "spend countless hours" on the gun range honing their marksmanship skills and must qualify annually with the same weapons.

That man should be fired. Besides being completely laughable, he's 100% full of poo. I bet the majority of this membership could pass the TN quals, today.

I'd be totally fine with an enhanced permit that required extra training. Heck, even fine with being subject to annual quals with LEO's.

[oljames3]

LOL, the legacy media needs to update their tired old "wild west" propaganda. This is what the bill actually does:

State Sen. Joey Hensley, who introduced the state Senate version of the bill, told ABC News that the goal of the bill was to allow enhanced gun permit carriers to carry their weapons into locations where off-duty law enforcement enter, such as a store or restaurant that prohibits guns inside their business. Hensley said the bill would not allow enhanced permit holders to bring their weapons into courts or schools.

"This is trying to open it up so that people who go to the extreme to get this extra permit can have the right to defend themselves in more places," the senator told ABC News Thursday.

That is not making them law enforcement at all.

This is ridiculous as well:

The state's largest police union, however, told ABC news that it is "adamantly opposed to this bill in its current form."

Scottie DeLashmit, the president of Tennessee State Lodge for the Fraternal Order of Police, said police officers in the state "spend countless hours" on the gun range honing their marksmanship skills and must qualify annually with the same weapons.

No offense, but I have to imagine Tennessee is the same as most other states where police officers get around 40 hours of firearms training, which isn't all spent on shooting(cleaning/use of force/etc). Studies about LEO vs. recreational vs. novice shooters are extraordinarily eye opening:

The real risks during deadly police shootouts: Accuracy of the naive shooter

Participants were separated by firearms experience into the following groups: expert (completed law enforcement firearms course, n = 83), intermediate (recreational experience, n = 71) and novice (minimal/no experience, n = 93). All subjects were tested for accuracy at target locations from 3 to 75 ft. For all locations, no difference was found in accuracy between expert and intermediate groups (p > 0.30). Experts and intermediates had better results than novices on all locations (p < 0.05) except from 3 to 15 ft. Alarmingly, experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. Finally, novices and intermediate shooters were more likely to hit head locations from 3 ft (57%), whereas experts mainly hit the body location (78%). The results of this study indicate that officers had no advantage over intermediate shooters and a small advantage over novices.

Note that this study artificially boosts the "law enforcement" category by combining Law Enforcement with military (with handgun training) and then calling everyone in the category law enforcement. I can only think of ONE reason for the authors to do that... because without adding military the "law enforcement" numbers are significantly worse. In his book Bill Rogers indicates that historically many law enforcement organizations didn't even practice drawing from the holster.

I would LOVE to see a study of students who when through the NRA series of Personal Protection courses vs. these other groups, but I think I already know the answer. The NRA trains students to use barricades, holsters, etc.

Can't help with NRA, but the Rangemaster students involved in shootings I do know. Of the 68 students of Tom Givens (Rangemaster) who have been involved in shootings, the hit percentage is 90+ vs about 30 for police.

[Paladin]

LOL, the legacy media needs to update their tired old "wild west" propaganda. This is what the bill actually does:

State Sen. Joey Hensley, who introduced the state Senate version of the bill, told ABC News that the goal of the bill was to allow enhanced gun permit carriers to carry their weapons into locations where off-duty law enforcement enter, such as a store or restaurant that prohibits guns inside their business. Hensley said the bill would not allow enhanced permit holders to bring their weapons into courts or schools.

"This is trying to open it up so that people who go to the extreme to get this extra permit can have the right to defend themselves in more places," the senator told ABC News Thursday.

That is not making them law enforcement at all.

This is ridiculous as well:

The state's largest police union, however, told ABC news that it is "adamantly opposed to this bill in its current form."

Scottie DeLashmit, the president of Tennessee State Lodge for the Fraternal Order of Police, said police officers in the state "spend countless hours" on the gun range honing their marksmanship skills and must qualify annually with the same weapons.

No offense, but I have to imagine Tennessee is the same as most other states where police officers get around 40 hours of firearms training, which isn't all spent on shooting(cleaning/use of force/etc). Studies about LEO vs. recreational vs. novice shooters are extraordinarily eye opening:

The real risks during deadly police shootouts: Accuracy of the naive shooter

Participants were separated by firearms experience into the following groups: expert (completed law enforcement firearms course, n = 83), intermediate (recreational experience, n = 71) and novice (minimal/no experience, n = 93). All subjects were tested for accuracy at target locations from 3 to 75 ft. For all locations, no difference was found in accuracy between expert and intermediate groups (p > 0.30). Experts and intermediates had better results than novices on all locations (p < 0.05) except from 3 to 15 ft. Alarmingly, experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. Finally, novices and intermediate shooters were more likely to hit head locations from 3 ft (57%), whereas experts mainly hit the body location (78%). The results of this study indicate that officers had no advantage over intermediate shooters and a small advantage over novices.

Note that this study artificially boosts the "law enforcement" category by combining Law Enforcement with military (with handgun training) and then calling everyone in the category law enforcement. I can only think of ONE reason for the authors to do that... because without adding military the "law enforcement" numbers are significantly worse. In his book Bill Rogers indicates that historically many law enforcement organizations didn't even practice drawing from the holster.

I would LOVE to see a study of students who when through the NRA series of Personal Protection courses vs. these other groups, but I think I already know the answer. The NRA trains students to use barricades, holsters, etc.

Can't help with NRA, but the Rangemaster students involved in shootings I do know. Of the 68 students of Tom Givens (Rangemaster) who have been involved in shootings, the hit percentage is 90+ vs about 30 for police.

Tom Givens reports outstanding results from his training. Paul Howe also reports outstanding results from the LEO students he trains. There is lots of good training out there, and unfortunately not enough police are getting it.

[Paladin]

From the academic report:

The average amount of training time spent
on firearms skills in the academy is a mere 60 hours, with
even less time spent on self-defense skills (Reaves, 2009).
Even with in-service training, law enforcement officers may
only receive another 12-16 hours or fewer of firearms use
training over the course of each year (Lewinski, 2013).

That is far from "countless hours"