Run in with UNT Police, whose ignorant?

[JJVP]

However if you DON'T have a Texas CHL then you are violating Federal gun free school zone laws.

The federal GFSZA only applies to elementary and secondary education (K-12 grade). The GFSZA does not apply to universities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_S ... ct_of_1990" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sewer_Ice]

I'm going to write a letter/contact the head of department so NEXT TIME I have my gun in my car, I'm not targeted. The officer took note of my car, etc. I'm sure they will find some bull excuse to pull me over again. Just having the Texas CHL handbook in my car, clearly stating what the law is, does not necessarily protect me from wasting a day in jail, and having an arrest on my record.

[McKnife]

I'm going to write a letter/contact the head of department so NEXT TIME I have my gun in my car, I'm not targeted. The officer took note of my car, etc. I'm sure they will find some bull excuse to pull me over again. Just having the Texas CHL handbook in my car, clearly stating what the law is, does not necessarily protect me from wasting a day in jail, and having an arrest on my record.

Sounds like you handled the situation well. I've been in your position several times and the best advice I can give is to remain calm and professional.

You're doing to right thing by writing a letter. Be professional, but firm.

Just remember, if you are ever arrested for anything at anytime, lawyer up and zip your mouth.

[A-R]

However if you DON'T have a Texas CHL then you are violating Federal gun free school zone laws.

The federal GFSZA only applies to elementary and secondary education (K-12 grade). The GFSZA does not apply to universities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_S ... ct_of_1990" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are correct. Brain wires got crossed on that one. Thanks for fixing that.

[BrianSW99]

Just read the student code of conduct:
http://www.unt.edu/csrr/pdf/conduct/code_of_conduct.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No mention of firearms what-so-ever! I didn't even violate University Policy! Unless it's listed somewhere else.

You might want to re-read that code of conduct before you decide to write letters that would identify yourself. I see firearms mentioned in two places:

On page 3,
"6. Personal Safety – Students have the right to a classroom environment that is free of obvious hazards to safety and security.
Responsibility: Students are responsible for compliance with University rules and regulations prohibiting firearms, explosives, incendiaries and weapons of any kind on campus. Students are also responsible to abide by all health/ safety rules and procedures in all academic courses and laboratories."

On page 7 under "Acts Affecting Health, Safety or Welfare",
"3. Arson or unauthorized use or possession of ammunition, firearms, explosives, or other objects that are dangerous or flammable or that could cause damage by fire or explosion to persons or property."

[Big Tuna]

I could very easily have gone to jail today due to his ignorance, then missed a test. Getting arrested for ANY REASON (innocent, or not having committed any crime) is not an excuse for missing a test for an department at UNT, so I'd have to take a zero for a test grade! I'll make sure to mention this as well, and the fact that I plan on going into law enforcement myself, so I do understand that every officer cannot know every law, but knowing CHL as it pertains to his jurisdiction is important.

That goes a million times more if he arrests or threatens to arrest someone for the non-existent law.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for you and me. I think it's disgusting that a cop can kidnap you for a crime that doesn't exist (I won't dignify the kidnapping by calling it an arrest) and claim ignorance as a defense.

[Aggie_engr]

In addition to what Brian found for you, I found this here http://www.unt.edu/newuntfeatures/vtech.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q: What is UNT’s policy in regard to weapons on campus?

A: State law prohibits the possession of firearms in any building on the UNT campus. This prohibition includes those persons normally licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Violations of state law or university policies will result in immediate action; including, arrest and prosecution, referral to the Center for Student Rights and Responsibilities and/or disciplinary action for faculty and staff. Possession of explosives is prohibited anywhere on campus.

[KaiserB]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

You may bet hauled back to the station where the "official" penal code books are kept. And then it is still a gamble as many police stations do not always keep the most current law books on hand.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20878" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[srothstein]

Brian beat me the part about guns I was going to post, but I also found another interesting part you might consider using in a discussion about the school policy.

The first right mentioned on that page was:

1. Protection of Constitutional Freedoms – Students and all other members of the University community are guaranteed the constitutional freedoms of speech, peaceful assembly, petition and association.

Responsibility: Students and others must exercise their rights by lawful means subject to University rules and regulations regarding time, location, method and duration. Students may not disrupt the operations of the University or interfere with the rights of others to exercise their constitutional freedoms.

I find it interesting that they only mention your right to some of the constitutional rights, and then they immediately claim they can infringe on them with rules and such.

But note that the last line says that no one may interfere with your exercise of your constitutional freedoms. How do they square their policy on firearms with the Second Amendment and the Heller and McDonald decisions?

[C-dub]

How do they square their policy on firearms with the Second Amendment and the Heller and McDonald decisions?

My guess is that they either haven't thought about it or are ignoring it hoping that no one else will either.

[NorthTexas]

Sewer_Ice, I'm sorry this happened to you but good on you for avoiding the ride!

For those that don't know, UNT has already publicly stated their opposition to concealed carry on campus and to the related bills currently before the legislature. This article is undated but I remember seeing it when it was first published, around or shortly before Jan. 11th I believe.
http://inhouse.unt.edu/no-guns-please

I wouldn't care to guess whether the officer might have been ignorant of the law. I will say that I've met many UNT Police Officers before (NOT due to any misbehavior on my part! ) and as a whole, I've been very impressed with the professionalism of the department. I really hope the officer was just ignorant/unfamiliar with the law...

Now, about the Student Code of Conduct and the questions about whether a student can keep a firearm in their car on campus. The Student Code of Conduct was recently (within the last year or two) revised. I believe the old version specifically prohibited firearms anywhere on campus, including cars, and it looks like that might have been removed from the current version (I haven't read the new version, just what I've seen quoted here on the forum). What I am absolutely sure about is that last semester the Director of the CSSR (they're the folks that would remove students for violations of the Student Code of Conduct) told a group of staff members (including a relative of mine who I trust 100%) that students COULD keep firearms in their cars on campus. The Director also implied to these staff members that they didn't want students to know that and they weren't going to advertise that fact. Obviously, I can't be cited as a reference if anyone gets in trouble, but I would suggest Sewer_Ice contact CSRR (preferably the Director) and ask for a written explanation of the university's policy on keeping firearms in cars on campus, since the Student Code of Conduct is (intentionally, IMHO) vague on the issue.

I have intentionally refrained from dropping names in this thread; due to Google indexing I would greatly appreciate if it could stay that way. Anyone who needs to know the names should be able to find them on UNT's website without much effort; Sewer_Ice can PM me if (s)he has any other questions.

[baldeagle]

In addition to what Brian found for you, I found this here http://www.unt.edu/newuntfeatures/vtech.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q: What is UNT’s policy in regard to weapons on campus?

A: State law prohibits the possession of firearms in any building on the UNT campus. This prohibition includes those persons normally licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Violations of state law or university policies will result in immediate action; including, arrest and prosecution, referral to the Center for Student Rights and Responsibilities and/or disciplinary action for faculty and staff. Possession of explosives is prohibited anywhere on campus.

What Brian found and what you found creates a tension between the law and school policy. The question is, how does UNT define "campus" for purposes of their policy. The law clearly states that it is illegal to carry on the premises, which is precisely defined as "buildings" and not grounds or parking lots. Yet the school policy uses the term "campus" which is not defined but could mean within the boundaries of all lands owned by UNT. Before I carried a weapon, even in my car, I would get clarification of those terms, because your future as a student depends on your compliance with school policies.

[Reloader]

You are assuming this bozo can READ! you sometimes have to deal with idots.

[NorthTexas]

Brian beat me the part about guns I was going to post, but I also found another interesting part you might consider using in a discussion about the school policy.

The first right mentioned on that page was:

1. Protection of Constitutional Freedoms – Students and all other members of the University community are guaranteed the constitutional freedoms of speech, peaceful assembly, petition and association.

Responsibility: Students and others must exercise their rights by lawful means subject to University rules and regulations regarding time, location, method and duration. Students may not disrupt the operations of the University or interfere with the rights of others to exercise their constitutional freedoms.

I find it interesting that they only mention your right to some of the constitutional rights, and then they immediately claim they can infringe on them with rules and such.

I AM NOT A LAWYER - I did study constitutional law for two semesters as an undergrad - but still I AM NOT A LAWYER. That said, I think the time, place (location), manner, and duration restrictions on constitutional rights are fairly common in general, I know there are many instances where the US Supreme Court has held them valid. But that is NOT LEGAL ADVICE, and I'M NOT A LAWYER!

[baldeagle]

You are assuming this bozo can READ! you sometimes have to deal with idots.

I'm not a moderator, but I believe this comes perilously close to a rule 9 violation. "Blatant, global, or rampant law enforcement bashing is prohibited. Discussions of specific identifiable events presented factually are fine." I think calling a police officer a bozo is uncalled for, regardless of what opinion you may have formed about his actions.