ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

As the name indicates, this is the place for gun-related political discussions. It is not open to other political topics.

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 22
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#121

Post by Rafe »

Grayling813 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:38 pm GOA AND TEXAS AG PAXTON FILE SUIT AGAINST ATF PISTOL BRACE RULE
https://www.gunowners.org/goa-and-texas ... race-rule/
Washington, D.C. – Today, Gun Owners of America (GOA) and the Gun Owners Foundation (GOF) jointly filed a lawsuit challenging the Biden Pistol Brace Ban with Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton. The suit was filed in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas.
Thanks. I was wondering where Texas was on that list of 25 states from your previous post.
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar
User avatar

Grayling813
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 18
Posts: 2342
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:18 am
Location: Arlington

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#122

Post by Grayling813 »

John Lovell weighs in.


User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 22
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#123

Post by Rafe »

Got this in an NRA update email this morning, but the article is from March 10:

Congressmen Demand Answers From the ATF
https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/cont ... m-the-atf/

In part:
In light of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recent ventures into making laws instead of just enforcing them, two U.S. Congressmen are calling on ATF Director Steve Dettelbach to answer some questions in front of a committee in the U.S. House of Representatives.

Reps. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) and Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) are pulling no punches in demanding that Dettelbach and three other ATF officials appear before the House Judiciary Committee, which Jordan chairs. Massie is chairman of the Subcommittee on the Administrative State, Regulatory Reform and Antitrust.

According to the letter to Dettelbach, the congressmen have written to the ATF with multiple requests for information on the agency’s rulemaking process, yet agency officials have not answered Jordan’s inquiries since the ATF recently redefined braced pistols as short-barreled rifles (SBRs) under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

“The ATF’s lack of transparency comes after the agency issued a final rule banning stabilizing pistol braces, and as the agency continues to shut down lawful businesses through the ‘zero-tolerance’ policy for federal firearms dealers (FFLs),” the letter states. “Just last year, the United States Supreme Court held in West Virginia v. Environmental Protection Agency that under the major questions doctrine, ‘given both separation of powers principles and a practical understanding of legislative intent, the agency must point to ‘clear congressional authorization’ for the authority it claims. This ruling raises serious doubts about ATF’s ability to regulate pistol braces absent a clear mandate from Congress.”

The letter invites Dettelbach to testify before the U.S. House Judiciary Committee on April 26....
For those here who are keeping track--and for the other 20 million Americans affected--the quickly approaching deadline under the ATF's pistol brace "law" to either register or dismantle is May 31. May 31 will be 120 days from the day the order was published in the Federal Register: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR- ... -01001.pdf.
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar
User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 10
Posts: 26798
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#124

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Don’t comply. Become ungovernable. That’s MY answer.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 15
Posts: 6369
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#125

Post by Paladin »

What we have here is clear evidence of oligarchy:

Congressional Witness Admits Bloomberg Gun Control Group Asked ATF for Pistol Brace Rule
Jordan asked Wilcox, “Did you or anyone in your organization communicate with the ATF or the Biden administration about these issues we are discussing today, prior to the notice of proposed rulemaking?”

Wilcox responded, “We submitted a formal petition for rulemaking through the formal channel, sir.”

Jordan then pressed for certainty, asking, “Before the notice of proposed rule making?”

Wilcox responded, “That’s correct.”
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 22
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#126

Post by Rafe »

Just wonderful. :banghead:
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar
User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#127

Post by rtschl »

Not sure what to think. I don't have one, but don't think it should be illegal to have a brace. But this is possibly a very limited injunction. Only FPC members who were the named plaintiffs? That injunction should be for everyone in 5th Circuit.

Ron
NRA Member
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 15
Posts: 6369
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#128

Post by Paladin »

rtschl wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:47 pm Not sure what to think. I don't have one, but don't think it should be illegal to have a brace. But this is possibly a very limited injunction. Only FPC members who were the named plaintiffs? That injunction should be for everyone in 5th Circuit.

Good News! :cheers2:
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#129

Post by rtschl »

Paladin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 1:45 pm
Good News! :cheers2:
Except the injunction may only apply to members of FPC who are the plaintiffs - no one else. If true, then that is a travesty for those that own them and not a member of FPC. That would mean the new ATF rule still applies to anyone else in the 5th District as well as all other districts. I don't think I have seen such a limitation of a 2A lawsuit before. Hopefully, the reporting is wrong on this and the injunction is for all in the 5th District.
Ron
NRA Member
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 15
Posts: 6369
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#130

Post by Paladin »

rtschl wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:29 pm
Paladin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 1:45 pm
Good News! :cheers2:
Except the injunction may only apply to members of FPC who are the plaintiffs - no one else. If true, then that is a travesty for those that own them and not a member of FPC. That would mean the new ATF rule still applies to anyone else in the 5th District as well as all other districts. I don't think I have seen such a limitation of a 2A lawsuit before. Hopefully, the reporting is wrong on this and the injunction is for all in the 5th District.
I'll let any lawyers chime in, but my understanding is that the "as to plantiffs" part means it rules in favor of the plantiffs, not just "for the plantiff". Therefore Texas and the rest of the area covered by the 5th Circuit has injuction relief.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Rafe
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 22
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Htown

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#131

Post by Rafe »

Paladin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:47 pm I'll let any lawyers chime in, but my understanding is that the "as to plaintiffs" part means it rules in favor of the plaintiffs, not just "for the plaintiff". Therefore Texas and the rest of the area covered by the 5th Circuit has injunction relief.
Fingers crossed. The implementation deadline is barely a week away. And my friend still hasn't figured out how to get the pistol brace off his without cutting off the buffer tube. He tried the application of heat to try to loosen the brace so it would come off, but no go. Looks like the manufacturer glued the thing on there with something stronger than a semi-removable Loktite.
“Be ready; now is the beginning of happenings.”
― Robert E. Howard, Swords of Shahrazar

Wysiwyg101
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:22 pm
Location: Plano, TX

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#132

Post by Wysiwyg101 »

This morning I read a Quora question and response that talks about this. The question respondent came up with some stuff I hadn't considered. Here's the question:

"How many gun owners realize that the new ban on pistol braces will instantly make millions of law abiding gun owners felons, require those who try to comply with the new rule to provide photographic evidence to the ATF that they own illegal firearms, and add many names to the ATF's gun registry?"

Here's the response by Matt B.

"The proposed final rule does make a lot of unsuspecting gun owners felons.

People are forgetting there are two classes of problems here. The first, as pointed out, you need to provide photographic evidence of your firearm to determine if it will be SBR’d. This is an issue because under the National Firearms Act (NFA), one must get approved beforehand to assemble an NFA item. Until you have the tax stamp, you are deemed to be in illegal possession of the NFA item by default.

There is literally nothing stopping the BATFE from prosecuting every single person who sends in a picture of their braced pistol for unlawful possession of a short-barreled rifle (SBR). There is nothing in the law that allows the BATFE to create a different registration procedure for SBRs now that didn’t exist before.

This is, believe or not, the lesser of the two problems.

What a lot of talk about the brace rule have been ignoring is the fact that in several jurisdictions, NFA firearms or SBRs are illegal to possess! Period. These firearms were sold and transferred as legal pistols. With the BATFE’s blessing. But reclassify them as SBR’s and you have literally created unknowing felons in these states and these people have literally no way to comply. Their states won’t let them. A free tax stamp does them no good when NFA possession is already illegal.

Which means the brace rule faces two rather significant Constitutional issues. One is equal protection. Pistols sold legally in all 50 states are now going to be treated differently where you live. Bruen had something to say about that. The other is a little more major. The fact the owner cannot comply requires them to dispose of the firearm. Without compensation.

This is what we call a “taking” under the Fifth Amendment. The BATFE wrote a rule that literally bans and confiscates firearms from legal owners. These owners cannot comply with the terms of the rule so their only option is to sell or turn in the gun. They have no legal ability to retain possession despite the fact they bought and transferred the firearm legally.

You just created felons requiring them to turn in their guns in California, the District of Columbia, Connecticut (specific exceptions exist), Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland (if under 29″ OAL), Minnesota, New Jersey, New York and Rhode Island. In other states SBRs are legal to possess if legally registered under Federal law. State law may make an SBR illegal unless previously registered with the Federal government and many do.

This is major, folks. This is literally a government confiscation of firearms by fiat. No law was passed by Congress to enable this. A government agency decided on its own to reclassify Title I firearms into Title II and ban them.

Getting added to the NFRTR (National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record, the registry of NFA items) is the least of these people’s problem.

The 5th Amendment issue is the reason I see this being overturned or stayed. People in 10 states, 20% of the country and a lot more than 20% of the population, are now being required to surrender their firearms to the government without recompense. That cannot stand.
"
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 15
Posts: 6369
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#133

Post by Paladin »

“We are very excited and encouraged by the Fifth Circuit’s decision this morning,” Cody J. Wisniewski, Senior Attorney for Constitutional Litigation at FPC Action Foundation, said in a statement. “We intend to ask the Court for additional information about who is covered under the injunction, but cannot stress enough just how important this decision is.”
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#134

Post by rtschl »

The EPA ruling today may also end up blocking ATF regulations not clearly defined in law. Interesting video from 2A/Constitutional attorney Mark Smith that goes more in depth explaining how this ruling can be applied to ATF. You'll need to click the Show more to get the YouTube link.

Ron
NRA Member
User avatar

tomneal
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

#135

Post by tomneal »

I've been watching Mark Smith on you tube for about a year. (I have too much time on my hands. and the weather prevented me from going outside to play.)

Mark has hopeful takes on 2nd amendment court cases.
See you at the range
NRA Life, TSRA Life, USPSA Life, Mensa (not worth $50 per year so it's expired)
Tom (Retired May 2019) Neal
Post Reply

Return to “Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues”