This incident is outrageous in so many ways it's difficult to know where to begin!
A homeowner is accused of setting a trap after he kills a burglar in his garage. The burglar happens to be a 17 yr old German exchange student. (Ironically, the homeowner is named "Kaarma").
Regardless of whether the homeowner is guilty, the fact that Montana takes an ambiguous position on Germany's claim is an outrage in its self.
I had to read the article twice it was so outrageous.
"...you might find it useful to know that German penal law also applies for crimes committed against German nationals abroad, enabling German state prosecutors to open investigations in such cases." [Consul General of the Federal Republic of Germany, Peter Rothen]
Jim Beaux wrote:This incident is outrageous in so many ways it's difficult to know where to begin!
A homeowner is accused of setting a trap after he kills a burglar in his garage. The burglar happens to be a 17 yr old German exchange student. (Ironically, the homeowner is named "Kaarma").
Regardless of whether the homeowner is guilty, the fact that Montana takes an ambiguous position on Germany's claim is an outrage in its self.
I had to read the article twice it was so outrageous.
"...you might find it useful to know that German penal law also applies for crimes committed against German nationals abroad, enabling German state prosecutors to open investigations in such cases." [Consul General of the Federal Republic of Germany, Peter Rothen]
We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.
This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.! Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.
This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.
Anygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.
This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.
Anygunanywhere
I never intended to suggest otherwise.
The Germans are just putting political pressure on MT authorities.... As would I.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.! Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek
It is not only outrageous political supplication, but complete hogwash. How was the home owner supposed to know the intruder was a German citizen or what German law is? Nothing in US law requires us to identify the country of origin of an attacker before using deadly force. Better watch out for this becoming any kind of precedent, since prosecuting this guy because of German law and citizenship will give illegals from Latin American a free pass for burglary and assault. This is a sovereign nation, the German citizen came here subject to OUR laws. He assumed all risks of violating US law, just like a US citizen in Germany assumes the risk of violating German law.
"Journalism, n. A job for people who flunked out of STEM courses, enjoy making up stories, and have no detectable integrity or morals."
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.
This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
No comparison. One case is a matter of international law, and the other is a matter of Constitutional rights for an American accused of a domestic crime. Regardless of physical location, the US was justified in charging Chinese Military for its "virtual" incursions.
Within the borders of the US, we are judge by a jury of our peers. This cannot be allowed to "play out". Germany should be told in no uncertain terms to pound sand.
“In the world of lies, truth-telling is a hanging offense"
~Unknown
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.
This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.
Anygunanywhere
It won't be. To be criminally tried in a US court, the law of the jurisdiction must apply. He could be charged in Germany, but he could anyway. Extraditing someone is a completely different ball of wax. Good luck with that Lowenbrau boy.
I don't get it. We invaded a country and took their Pres. away in chains for violations of US law but the idea that German law allows it to prosecute a crime against their citizens that happen out of the county is some big deal? Just stay out of Germany after killing a German and move on. Their courts can do whatever they want it has no bearing on this case or what the US courts do.
EEllis wrote:I don't get it. We invaded a country and took their Pres. away in chains for violations of US law but the idea that German law allows it to prosecute a crime against their citizens that happen out of the county is some big deal? Just stay out of Germany after killing a German and move on. Their courts can do whatever they want it has no bearing on this case or what the US courts do.
I believe it is a big deal, no country should dictate anything to us. I believe it always depends on who can whup whom. We can whup the Panamanians and most everyone else we choose, at least currently. We did and still can whup the Germans, IMO I don't care what they or any other Country thinks, especially European. It angers me to no end to hear our Nation's leadership worry about what England and the rest of Europe thinks and does. If Montana finds this Gentleman guilty of a crime, then Montana will take care of the problem, we are still the Alpha Dog.
Unless we keep the barbarian virtues, gaining the civilized ones will be of little avail. Oversentimentality, oversoftness, washiness, and mushiness are the great dangers of this age and of this people." Teddy Roosevelt"
DEB=Daniel E Bertram
U.S. Army Retired, (Sapper). VFW Life Member.
