The Annoyed Man wrote: Strat9mm wrote:
nightmare wrote:If that's directed to me, I leave judgment of innocence in God's hands. Man's got to know his limitations.
Regardless, I have no duty to protect a society that violates my rights, whether in matters great or small.
Humans who deliberately kill innocents, are no longer innocent themselves. The judgement and sentence are required to be carried out by the duly appointed GOVERNMENT.
Lev 24:17 ‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.*  Anyone who takes the life of someone's animal must make restitution*—life for life.  Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner:  fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.* The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.  Whoever kills an animal must make restitution,* but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.*  You are to have the same law for the foreigner* and the native-born.*I am the LORD your God.' ”
As for your second statement, here is something to think about...
Lev 19:18 “ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Mat 22:39 "Love your neighbor as yourself."
We have a duty to care for each other, primarily our family and loved ones, secondarily, our neighbors.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
Christ, Christian martyrs, and members of our Armed Forces and those who put their lives on the line, and especially those who give their lives for our nation, are excellent examples of John 15:13.
And in case no one has noticed, and I'm guessing very few have
, the Old Testament was THE BIBLE for the early Christians for DECADES -after- Christ died.
A careful reading easily shows that the NEW TESTAMENT is a record of Jewish and non-Jewish converts to Christianity keeping God's Laws as Christ and the Apostles taught and kept them.
So much for the O.T. being declared 'obsolete' or no longer required to be obeyed by anyone.
If it wasn't, everyone should be thieving, raping and murdering right now.
Oh wait, they are... in arab countries.
Dude..... I'm 62 years old, and I've been a grateful follower of Jesus Christ and a student of the Bible for a bit of time now. We have more than one member here who actually pastor a church and are graduates of a recognized divinity school. I appreciate that you have faith, and praise God for that, but you're kind of preaching like nobody else has ever read God's Word, and it's coming off as just a tad bit arrogant. Honestly, you have exactly zero idea of what any other believers here understand about the authority of the OT in scriptural matters, so your statement (in red, above) assumes a LOT, and it is pretty over the top. Just sayin'..... And, God's word on Murder (which is clearly differentiated from "killing") is also extensively covered in other passages besides Leviticus 24:17-22....... i.e. Exodus 21:14; Leviticus 21:12-13; Deuteronomy 19:1-13..... and there are others.
The Bible VERY clearly distinguishes between homicide, and murder. The correct translation of 6th Commandment is to not murder
. There are other passages in the Mosaic Law where the people of Israel are specifically told that there is a difference between killing a person who enters your dwelling uninvited in the middle the night, and killing that same intruder during daylight hours. In fact, that little tidbit permeates use of force and use of deadly force law here in Texas to this very day. Killing in self-defense IS permitted, but not if you provoked the fight. So you cannot make a blanket statement that one who takes the life of an innocent MUST receive death...... There is plenty of OT scriptural law to say that this is NOT necessarily the case.
Also, for better or for worse, there are a number of members here who are atheists. Biblical authority won't be acceptable to them as the justification for why we ought to be looking out for one another. You might be right that we should, but you have to be able to articulate that argument in terms that will make sense to people who do not share your faith.....or who have religious faith but are neither Christians nor Jews.
There has only ever been ONE innocent Man, and HE was hung on a cross almost 2100 years ago. If you believe that scripture is inerrant, whether it is OT, or NT, then you know that all of us deserve death, and that it is by God's grace alone what we are spared.........in this life.........for ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, including both you, and me. Neither of us is innocent, and if we are not condemned, then it is only because we are covered by the blood of the Lamb. So when you say "Humans who deliberately kill innocents, are no longer innocent themselves", expand your understanding. Murder is a heinous crime, but the victims were never
innocent in eternal terms. We are all guilty. Some are just more guilty than others. Personally, I love Christ's parable of the pharisee and the tax collector who went to the temple to pray (Luke 18:9-14). I am the tax collector. Don't be the pharisee.
As my signature line says, a ragamuffin knows he is only a beggar at the door of God's mercy.
Lastly, if you want to go ninja if terrorists attack a mall, and you have the capability to do so, the more power to you. Just understand not all of us older guys will have the same inclination. That's why young men fight the wars, not the old guys.
Now, I return this thread to its original programming, and peace be upon you.
The topic under discussion was what to do during a mall attack by AK47 armed ISIS terrorists.
Helpful tactical (and some strategic, e.g. don't go to the mall!) suggestions were of course offered by others, including myself, in prior posts to this thread.
My point to your post was that terrorists and those who deliberately kill (murder) other human beings, have forfeited their right to life. If they die in the battle to rescue the innocent, great! If they are captured, they are to be judged and executed by the duly appointed government.
It was my understanding that the reader understood that killing as a result of self-defense, accidental homicide, and especially in the defense of others, was not and should not be a crime. Though under biblical law, accidental homicide would get one a death penalty at the hands of the decedents relatives if one decided to not go to, or to leave a city of refuge (Num 35:6-33)
As for the 'innocent', biblically speaking we are both innocent, and NOT innocent just as you explained. If one does a word search for the word "innocent" in the Bible, it would clearly show that God considers the general population to be 'innocent'... generally.
Murderers, including ISIS and other terrorists who kill the INNOCENT are obviously not innocent.
And neither are ANY muslims including those in whose cities we fight in the middle east, including Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Somalia. Those muslim populations hate us and their 'religion' teaches and upholds that hatred of the west, Christians and Jews. They ARE our enemies and they prove it on a daily basis. Obviously, we haven't won any hearts and minds over there even with the BILLIONS of dollars in BRIBES, err, 'aid' we've been stupid enough to give them. Anyway...
Graduates of 'divinity school' would or should have realized that the New Testament is a record of Jewish and non-Jewish converts to Christianity keeping God's Laws and Sabbaths just as Christ and the Apostles did. God made the Sabbath Day Holy, and no one can make it UNholy. God even records how Abraham obeyed God, well before Moses was given the Law by God. God speaking to Abraham's son, Isaac said:
Gen 26:2-6:  Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.  I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,  because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees* and my instructions.”
Let's read that again:
... because Abraham OBEYED ME and did everything I required of him, KEEPING my COMMANDMENTS (H4687: COMMANDMENTS, same word used for in Exodus and several other Scriptures referencing God's Commandments), my DECREES and my INSTRUCTIONS.''
Why would the translators deliberately refuse to use the word COMMANDMENTS? Just a question... continuing...
In the New Testament, Adam is compared to Christ. You can be assured that Adam (and Abel, obviously), were taught and kept God's COMMANDMENTS including the SABBATH (which is seventh day of the week, Saturday).
The New Covenant is described as follows:
Heb 10:16 “This is the COVENANT I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.I will put MY LAWS in THEIR HEARTS,and I will WRITE THEM on THEIR MINDS.”  Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
God won't remember our sins and lawlessness anymore, because we will have HIS LAWS in OUR HEARTS and in OUR MINDS, as we OBEY THEM when the NEW COVENANT is in effect. That is called 'repentance', i.e. change.
Obviously, that is NOT being done now. Hence the statement you referenced in red. I don't see divinity graduates keeping the Sabbaths as the Apostles did and taught, for DECADES AFTER Christ died. Are they better than the Apostles and deserving of better rewards?
Even the publishers of the NIV version of the Bible, who had the most accurate translation, are doing their best to water down God's Truth and requirements.
Here is a telling verse:
New NIV Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
"Old" NIV Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the SAINTS who keep GOD's COMMANDMENTS and REMAIN faithful to Jesus.
The 'translators' DELIBERATELY left out the words SAINTS, GOD and COMMANDMENTS (G1785 entole see Luke 1:16, 18:20 and others) and instead DELIBERATELY chose to use the WRONG words. (Jer 8:8: ... when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?)
Apparently, then as now, the "translators" have a much lower regard for GOD, His Saints, and God's COMMANDMENTS.
The Old NIV translation was accurate. the New NIV, is not.
Perhaps it's because they don't want people to realize that God's SAINTS do OBEY God's COMMANDMENTS, and thus REMAIN FAITHFUL to Jesus.
It doesn't take much to be guilty of teaching lies in God's Name. These guys just did it. Now you have just TWO examples (of MANY!) of how these 'translators' watered down and even lied about God's Word in the new NIV translation of the Bible.
Some people believe in 'karma', I don't. God does exist and He makes the judgements and decides the sentence. Not me. Everyone pays the price, sooner or later. I'm not involved.
In case you haven't noticed, and you haven't, God's Laws and Sabbaths are NOT being kept right now and they are definitely NOT in the hearts and minds of the general population.
It's almost as if everyone is free to rape, steal, and murder. And if God's laws are NOT to be kept, (because as some liars teach, Christ kept them 'for us') then one is REQUIRED 'by not keeping the law' to RAPE, MURDER and STEAL. If that is not insanity, I don't know what is.
Do people really expect God to grant eternal life to those who refuse to obey Him, and who steal, murder and rape? What kind of twisted reasoning leads to that belief? But that is exactly what is currently being taught by 'christian ministers'. They aren't actively teaching God's Laws or keeping or teaching God's Sabbaths, are they?
That was rhetorical. They aren't.
It's as if everyone heard about God's gift of eternal life and heard the rules, LAWS and requirements ON OUR PART to gain eternal life. Then they figured since God's Son kept God's Laws "for us", the rest of us are free to act like a pack of murderous animals completely ignoring and disobeying God's Laws while still OBLIGATING God to protect, bless and even grant us eternal life. Again, that is insane thinking.
It's as if a job applicant spoke to a CEO, and said "Hey, your VP keeps the rules so I don't have to!" "I expect promotions, health insurance and benefits and to be put in charge soon. I don't have to follow company rules, I don't have to HELP the company, and I don't have to be PROFITABLE!" "Please don't expect anything but some lip-service from me." I expect that prospective new-hire would be thrown out the door.
And that is our status now. About to be thrown out the door.
And now more to the point, in Genesis 14, we read about what is probably the most courageous battle against overwhelming odds ever fought on this planet by human beings.
Abraham with just 318 armed men went after four kings and their armies who conquered Sodom and Gomorrah and captured his nephew Lot and his family. Abraham and his 318 men went after the four kings who probably had armies of tens of thousands of men.
Abraham mounted what is probably the most heroic rescue mission ever made. He and his men were vastly outnumbered and they knew it and STILL went to rescue his nephew Lot and his family.
And by the way, when you see the word TRAINED below, they were trained not only in the day to day functions of Abrahams vast holdings, but in BATTLE. Farmers, and even ranch hands or cowboys, unless trained, would not fare very well at all in a battle against thousands, let alone tens of thousands of armed and TRAINED warriors.
Genesis 14:1 When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 TRAINED men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. 15 During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he ROUTED them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16 He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people.
As an aside, what do you think happened to the men being PURSUED when Abraham and his men got to them? What happened when the prophet Samuel arrived and found that King Saul FOOLISHLY spared an ENEMY king who had no problems slaughtering innocent men, women and children?
(1 Sam 15:33).
God gave Abraham the victory. Abraham and his men slaughtered the enemy and rescued everyone, including the residents of the two conquered cities, and brought back all the possessions which were taken.
God BLESSED Abraham because he risked his life for family and trusted in God for the outcome.
Abraham was NOT guilty of murder and NEITHER were Moses, Joshua, King David, Gideon or any of the warriors, from then to today, including our Armed Services, Intelligence Services, Police, Fire and EMS and security staff who put their lives on the line for OUR country as they fight for us and defend us, and rescue us.
In relation to OUR country...
Funny thing, 'scientists' (so-called) say they can trace mankind to it's origins in swamp slime, but no one seems to be able to trace the true origins of the Western European nations including Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, and especially the origins of the United States of America. Everyone seems to think the Israeli's and the Jews of the Diaspora (who live outside of Holy Land) are all the descendants of the people whom Moses saved from captivity. In reality, they are but ONE tribe (Judah) of the 12 (TWELVE) Tribes of Israel whom Moses brought out. There were two other tribes who had prominence in ancient times, and would be again at the end (today). These two Tribes are Levi (Levites, the Warrior Priests and same lineage as the famed Templar Knights who were the bankers and foremost Knights of Europe), and Ephraim, the son of Joseph, who today are THE United States of America.
Here's an interesting quote which was valid in ancient times, and through to today.
Hosea 13:1 When Ephraim spoke, men trembled; he was exalted in Israel.
At least this was true until this current 'administration'.
So much for 'historians' and 'scientists', so-called.
Oh, I almost forgot, here is the other part of the verse above... Hosea 13:1 ... But he became guilty of Baal worship and died.
From a biblical perspective, we can easily see that REAL Saints OBEY God. Divinity graduates for the most part, do NOT fall in this category.
Those who do not obey God, well, they are actually obeying someone else. You can guess who that is.
We have an obligation to our neighbor, and quite a different one to those ENEMIES who murder INNOCENT people and put their lives at risk in terrorist attacks.
I'm older as well, and frankly, FAT, but I'll be damned if I sit on my rear-end and not run TO the gunfire to help out if my own loved ones are already safe.
If all I have is my speedster folder, I'll STILL go and help. That's MY choice... and obligation.
(Edits made for clarity and accuracy and a bit of completeness)