One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

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TomsTXCHL
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#16

Post by TomsTXCHL » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:29 am

Target1911 wrote:I drive a tow truck. 3 different times I have been pulled over and bombarded with questions simply because I was towing a vehicle down the road. No other laws were broken or reason given for the stop. I asked one of them and he said it was an INVESTGATIVE stop. Hogwash. One of these was just 2 nights ago. Cost me 30 minutes of my time.
Why on earth do you suppose you might be targeted? Are tow trucks often times used to steal cars???

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#17

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:38 am

Dadtodabone wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Hey, if it's Saturday night, there's a reasonable suspicion that you're drunk.

I am just kidding of course..... but just barely. I don't know where this figure came from, or even if it was true or not, but back in my ER days, I remember being told by "someone who would know" that on any given Friday or Saturday night, something like 80% of drivers on the road after 8pm have measurable amounts of alcohol in their systems...... or maybe it was that 80% of drivers after 10pm are over the legal limit ......something like that
According to a studies done by the NHTSA and IIHS:
Percentage of Drivers with Measurable Levels,
1973, 36%
1986, 26%
1996, 17%
Percentage of Drivers with BAC of 0.10 or greater(impaired in all 50 states),
1973, 5.1%
1986, 3.2%
1996, 2.8%

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopne ... rvey-finds
Well, that would be more or less in line with what I was talking about. I worked in that ER from 1979 to 1986.
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Right2Carry
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#18

Post by Right2Carry » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:16 pm

jmra wrote:
Right2Carry wrote:I am reminded of DUI checkpoints where LEO stop cars based on that someone "may" be breaking the law. Where was the reasonable suspicion then?
I thought the courts did away with those checkpoints in Texas a while back.
http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws ... _laws.html
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#19

Post by TexasCajun » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:52 pm

Texas1999 wrote:How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?

The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see of you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop.

I foresee this being an issue if "licensed" OC passes.

Thoughts?
This is one of the arguments against expressed by Austin, Houston, and Harris County LEOs at last week's hearing. I think that initially there will be lots of mwag calls and a number of stop & checks. But eventually the calls will be handled by 911 operators asking "what are they doing", and the stop & checks will be reigned in with the same thoughts. Of course things in the large cities will take longer to settle down. The real wildcard will be what the oc zealots do. If they open carry without a license and are consistently found to be doing so, the settle down will take longer and we'll get to see lots more cop watch videos on YouTube.
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Jaguar
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#20

Post by Jaguar » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:12 pm

The way I see it, cops can demand ID from anyone but usually that person doesn't have to provide it (see PC section 38.02). However, if you are carrying openly they can still demand your ID, and now you have to show it or you will be in violation of 411.205. Can't beat that rap or ride.

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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#21

Post by cb1000rider » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:18 pm

Texas1999 wrote: With all due respect, I don't think LEOs stop and detain people "all the time" without reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Even if a cop does engage in such behavior, it is illegal and any competent criminal defense attorney can demonstrate that in court. It's a little known fact, but prosecutors keep lists of cops whose arrests and charges never seem to stick or who consistently make "legally questionable" arrests where the evidence gets suppressed, and those LEOs don't last very long in the profession.
I don't think it happens "all the time" either. I do completely disagree that any competent attorney can shred it in court. The burden is reasonable suspicion and it's trivially easy for a LEO to justify reasonable suspicion in a case where the only evidence is that of the LEO and that of the person who was stopped.

I think that if a LEO wants to stop you, he'll most likely find a reason to do so. How legal that stop is depends on a lot of factors.

How many LEO's are going to stand up and say "yea, I had no reason at all to stop him, it was just my spidey-sense..."

Also consider that in ANY of these cases that go to trial - the LEO found something or was able to charge someone with a crime. That's the word of a LEO against a "bad guy" that's been charged with a crime. How to do you think juries come out on that? You just need a hair of falsification and there is virtually no risk in providing it as a LEO. I know that my vehicles got searched (when I was younger) without a hair of reasonable suspicion or probable cause. I remember one 20 years ago where I was searched because I was speeding on I-35, which is a known "drug route"... Really? Yea, it happens. The stop for 5 mph over was valid. The search was completely bogus.

Lets just say it's a case where you're on the jury. And it's a LEO and one of these OCT guys? LEO says he had reasonable suspicion. OCT guy says he didn't. Who are you going to believe?

Body cameras stop a lot of this non-sense. Which is why I support them so much.

I think any OC legislation should make it abundantly clear that you cannot stop simply due to the presence of a firearm. You know it. I know it. Apparently it's an issue or we wouldn't see similar verbiage in other states that allow OC. I'd support a draft that doesn't have it, just to get it in the door, but yea, I think it's absolutely necessary.


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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#22

Post by Target1911 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:05 am

TomsTXCHL wrote:
Target1911 wrote:I drive a tow truck. 3 different times I have been pulled over and bombarded with questions simply because I was towing a vehicle down the road. No other laws were broken or reason given for the stop. I asked one of them and he said it was an INVESTGATIVE stop. Hogwash. One of these was just 2 nights ago. Cost me 30 minutes of my time.
Why on earth do you suppose you might be targeted? Are tow trucks often times used to steal cars???
That is why.... it has happened but that still doesn't give them a reason to stop ME. I drive a nice new and we'll marked tow truck. If I drove an old beat up truck with with no company info on the doors I could see it.
Another time I got hung up on a cops fishing trip....a buddy come into town to hang out for the weekend. He had his Harley in the bed if his truck. We drove down the street to a shop so we could use their loading ramp to unload his bike. I just happened to drive because I knew where the shop was. A cop pulled me over and ran my DL.... cop told me he pulled me over because he thought my tag light was a little dim.

Now.....I completely support LE. I have a few in my family and as friends. What I don't support is them making stuff up on fishing trips.
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mr1337
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#23

Post by mr1337 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:29 pm

Georgia has some great verbiage that would rectify this. One single sentence.
Georgia 16-11-137 wrote:(b) A person carrying a weapon shall not be subject to detention for the sole purpose of investigating whether such person has a weapons carry license.
And done. :smash:

That would protect the citizens' 2nd and 4th Amendment protections, as well as ensure the officers know they can't just demand your ID because you're open carrying.

They would need some other RS in order to detain you. (Which I'm sure they could come up with, given enough time and patience.)
Keep calm and carry.

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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#24

Post by SherwoodForest » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:50 pm

I predict no problems with law enforcement .......related to the open carrying of a holstered handgun in and of itself......assuming that a licensee exercises some degree of diligence in how they present in public.

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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#25

Post by RetNavy » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:09 pm

for me it would probably help me out... i walk with a cane, normally in my right hand.... weapon would be on right hip... my physical therapist keeps telling me i should be using the cane on the left side, since it would swing with the right leg.. so if i OC then maybe i would learn how to use the cane in the left hand :clapping:


but then too... could learn to shoot left handed and buy new left handed holsters :lol:
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#26

Post by Jimbo_47 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:48 pm

If and when it passes I look for a lot of calls for MWG and the LEO's have to respond. There are a lot of people that don't keep up with what goes on. :roll: It will be interesting watching what happens! ;-)

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jmra
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#27

Post by jmra » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:09 pm

Jimbo_47 wrote:If and when it passes I look for a lot of calls for MWG and the LEO's have to respond. There are a lot of people that don't keep up with what goes on. :roll: It will be interesting watching what happens! ;-)
Really? I don't believe this to be necessarily true. Assuming OC passes, 911 operators need to be trained to ask questions. If the caller says they saw someone with a holstered handgun in a place that is not legally off limits then the operator needs to inform the individual that is not a crime and warn them about the ramifications of misusing the 911 system.
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TexasCajun
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#28

Post by TexasCajun » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:27 pm

Jimbo_47 wrote:If and when it passes I look for a lot of calls for MWG and the LEO's have to respond. There are a lot of people that don't keep up with what goes on. :roll: It will be interesting watching what happens! ;-)
There will be a learning curve for both LEOs and OCers. That's one reason why I'm ok with the extra 4mos for implementation. 911 calls will quickly go something like this:

911: What's your emergency?
Caller: There's a man with a gun at the local sandwich shop
911: What is the man with a gun doing?
Caller: Looks like he's eating a sandwich
911: Where is the gun?
Caller: In a thingy attached to his belt
911: A holster?
Caller: Yes, I guess so.
911: Thank you for your concern, but as of Jan 1, 2016 open carry of handguns in the state of Texas is legal. The mere sight of an openly carried handgun is neither a crime nor is it an emergency. Have a good day
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TexasGal
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#29

Post by TexasGal » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:13 pm

Don't underestimate the left brain's need to force their desires by any means. Can you see a few MDA members engaging in such behavior as claiming the person waved the gun around? I will be happy to have OC pass, but the open display of my firearm will be limited to situations where others will be unlikely to feel pressured. It's for my own peace and just being considerate of others. Having said that, it will be really nice to have the option. :hurry:
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Re: One problem/issue if licensed OC passes

#30

Post by mr1337 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:28 pm

TexasGal wrote:Don't underestimate the left brain's need to force their desires by any means. Can you see a few MDA members engaging in such behavior as claiming the person waved the gun around? I will be happy to have OC pass, but the open display of my firearm will be limited to situations where others will be unlikely to feel pressured. It's for my own peace and just being considerate of others. Having said that, it will be really nice to have the option. :hurry:
I'm sure most members of MDA would love to call in a MWAG (man with a gun) 911 call. Some might even break the law by lying and saying the OCer was threatening people with it. We've seen it before, and I'm sure there's some incidents that were not reported by the news or blogs. But I think these incidents will be few and far between. As long as you're respectful, my understanding is that most people are going to be completely oblivious to you open carrying a firearm.
Keep calm and carry.

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