This is why I will not own any Apple products!

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#166

Post by casp625 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:13 pm

casp625 wrote:Or maybe the employer should have some kind of mobile device management system in place... where credentials are managed by the employer and they could have easily just reset the person's login :tiphat:
Wow, the Associated Press must read these forums! :cool:

http://news.yahoo.com/common-software-l ... 52000.html
If the technology, known as mobile device management, had been installed, San Bernardino officials would have been able to remotely unlock the iPhone for the FBI without the theatrics of a court battle that is now pitting digital privacy rights against national security concerns.

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#167

Post by Breny414 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:19 pm

WildBill wrote:
parabelum wrote:Apple is playing dumb, and Feds are playing benevolent.
For Apple, this isn't about privacy as many of their customers phones have been hacked by outside rats. Mine was one of them.

For Feds, this is about control and dominance in the big data spectrum.

Both parties are playing us for stupid.

Apple or Feds could hire a hacker, and with the use of botnet network generating up to 9 password guesses per second, they could have that phone cracked in under 20 minutes.

Again, they play the people for fools.

Notice also how that clerk in Kentucky got jailed for refusing judges order, yet Cook proudly rejects this judges order and nothing happens.
:headscratch
I would guess that the FBI has already hacked the phone and it doesn't have any useful information.

So when/if Apple hacks it they won't find any information either. And they can say - see we didn't evade any one's privacy. :shock:

I don't think they will try to jail Mr. Cook.
:iagree:

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#168

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:47 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:If you build it gov't will use it. As far as the families of the victims, I sympathize, but that is the SAME argument that the families of the Sandyhook school shooting victims used to argue that so-called "assault weapons" should be banned.

It's not all Apple by the way. Microsoft and Google are backing Apple's play. No.....it's NOT about me. It's about the Constitution.
You are smarter than that. It is not the same argument as that used by gun grabbers - there is no 2nd Amendment for the right to bear phones. Don't wrap this in the Constitution, call it what it is, a legitimate difference in opinion. And pray if it goes your way no one else is murdered. Phones don't kill, terrorists whose opsec is protected by naivety kills.
My constitutional argument is not founded in naiveté. No, there is no right to keep and bear cellphones (and neither did I say there was, anywhere in my post), but there most definitely IS a 4th Amendment right to be free from unwarranted intrusions into our personal effects and papers. It is, among other things, why we can put locks on our doors, and cops have to go get warrants and serve them in order to pop those locks off......EVEN when they suspect that criminals live in that house. And Apple (and Google, and Microsoft) maintain that what gov't is asking for cannot be accomplished without writing a back door into the phone software. I have a 4th Amendment right. I do not want Apple (and Google and Microsoft) to write back doors into their operating systems that will give gov't the ability to exploit that back door at gov't's whim. You make dire warnings of terrorist murders if I get my way. I don't accept that. Those murders are on the murderers heads. You seem to have great faith in the integrity of gov't. I do not. Gov't can't secure our borders. It cannot successfully prosecute a malfeasant AG who sells guns to narco-traffikers. It cannot successful stop dead people from voting.

Is there some risk to the public if gov't can't hack our phones any time they want to? Sure, there is. But a gov't which can mitigate all risks can only do so by suppressing the liberties its citizens. The freedom from unnecessary intrusions into our private affairs (including on our cellphones) is one of those liberties which the 4th Amendment guarantees. It is no longer a guarantee when gov't can violate it at will. What the FBI is trying to force Apple to do gives them that ability. They shouldn't have it. You started this thread by saying that this is why you'll never buy any Apple products. Does your anger over this also mean that you'll never buy an Android or Microsoft phone....since they are backing Apple's play? Anyway, that's my position. You and I differ on it, that's all.

So we are at an impasse. You're a good guy Bitter, and I don't want to fight with you.

BTW, did you read that link I posted? Here it is again: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231146. Here's another quote from it:
The current Apple flap is not really about that particular phone. There is a general problem with encryption keys in that short passwords and such are not really the key; rather, they unlock a key. That's algorithmic and thus where the key is actually stored becomes the big issue. Without hardware backing that secures said key in a way that if tampered with immediate and permanent destruction occurs you can dump the contents of the flash memory that's in the device and pick through it at your leisure.

In other words I believe the FBI is lying when they claim they cannot recover the data via any other means, simply on the known and published architectural differences between the OS on the phone and later versions of Apple's hardware and software. Push comes to shove they should be able to dump the NV image from the phone which contains the hash of the pin because that device has no separate hardware keystore, load it on an emulated device and hack away. Since there are only 10,000 possibilities and the encryption algorithm can be determined from disassembly of the object code performing such a test "offline" is trivial. The instruction set of the iPhone processor is not a secret; it's well-documented and open to the public.

This is not true for more-modern devices, but my understanding is that the version of IOS on the subject phone is IOS7. Because IOS7 was built to run on the iPhone 4 which has a (relatively crappy) processor it did not protect "everything" on the device -- probably for performance reasons. IOS8+ not only does it also, on newer devices, uses a hardware keystore which makes what the FBI is asking for worthless on such devices. Further, that implies that the data the FBI wants may not be encrypted at all in said flash memory!

Second, there's a bigger issue here with the FBI demand, which is that of chain-of-custody and forensics. The first principle of forensics is that you cannot modify that which you are examining and, if you ever intend to use said information in court you had better be able to prove that you didn't.
Etc., etc., etc. In other words, because the subject phone is iOS 7, it does not require Apple to crack it. The FBI can do it themselves with existing technology they already have, and they should already know that. So what they are actually asking for is for Apple to write a back door into iOS 8, without having a need for it within the context of the San Bernardino terrorism case. They are trying to force Apple to do it for future use. When they are done with Apple, they'll do the same to Google and Microsoft. When they're done......the US mobile phone manufacturing industry will be dead and buried, as customers desert them for foreign made products with better security.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#169

Post by ScottDLS » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:43 am

parabelum wrote:Apple is playing dumb, and Feds are playing benevolent.
For Apple, this isn't about privacy as many of their customers phones have been hacked by outside rats. Mine was one of them.

For Feds, this is about control and dominance in the big data spectrum.

Both parties are playing us for stupid.

Apple or Feds could hire a hacker, and with the use of botnet network generating up to 9 password guesses per second, they could have that phone cracked in under 20 minutes.

Again, they play the people for fools.

Notice also how that clerk in Kentucky got jailed for refusing judges order, yet Cook proudly rejects this judges order and nothing happens.
:headscratch
Except the phone will wipe itself after 10 wrong tries. The gov does not like strong encryption, because they can't break it without some backdoor method of getting the key. In an 8 character password there are ~256 to the 8th power possible passwords. About 18 quadrillion, so at 9 per second it will take you billions of years... and of course the memory will be wiped on the tenth wrong try.

There was an article in the WSJ that said that the 5c can probably be hacked by Apple, but later generations can't. And you can sure bet the software technology already exists to make sure it can never be done again. My understanding is it's already implemented in most recent Android versions. The court may win this one, but next time Apple will be like King Canute ordering the tides back. He shows his courtiers that as powerful as he is only God can order the sea back. :biggrinjester:
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#170

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:56 am

At the risk of going on a slight tangent, I would pay good money for a phone that had two log-ins. Log-in A accesses everything on the phone, as normal. Log-in B appears as normal but only accesses the specific content I have designated, meaning specific messages, pictures, call records, contacts, etc., can be designated to not show up when log-in B is used.

For the life of me, I can not figure out why this type of device is not offered.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#171

Post by WildBill » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:52 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:At the risk of going on a slight tangent, I would pay good money for a phone that had two log-ins. Log-in A accesses everything on the phone, as normal. Log-in B appears as normal but only accesses the specific content I have designated, meaning specific messages, pictures, call records, contacts, etc., can be designated to not show up when log-in B is used.

For the life of me, I can not figure out why this type of device is not offered.
The iPhone has a feature called restrictions that you can set a second passcode to access certain features.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#172

Post by Bitter Clinger » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:17 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
So we are at an impasse. You're a good guy Bitter, and I don't want to fight with you.
.
I think that we can disagree without being disagreeable :thumbs2:

And yes, I have worked in industries where the government could be trusted and with individuals who exhibited the highest standards of decency, loyalty and patriotism. This may make me a dinosaur given our current POTUS and his DOJ appointees. My immediate family has provided similar service. None of those oaths that we gave have ever been violated.

As far as security, if you are serious, do you practice on-line banking? It is not secure. Do you have a Facebook or Twitter page? Then you are not serious about security. DO you use Uber? Then you are not serious about the 2nd ammendment.

And to add final insult to injury, and I am certain that there is no commercial motive behind it all, now Bill Gates agrees with me :banghead:
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#173

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:53 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:And yes, I have worked in industries where the government could be trusted and with individuals who exhibited the highest standards of decency, loyalty and patriotism. This may make me a dinosaur given our current POTUS and his DOJ appointees. My immediate family has provided similar service. None of those oaths that we gave have ever been violated.
I have no doubt that what you're saying here was true......at one time. We are ALL dinosaurs given our current POTUS and his DOJ appointees. We are facing the following prospect on Friday, January 20, 2017.......less than a year from now:
  1. Bernie Sanders will be sworn in as POTUS, or
  2. Hillary Clinton will be sworn in as POTUS, or
  3. barring some unseen catastrophe to his prospects, Donald Trump will be sworn in.
None of those three engender confidence in a return to Constitutional gov't.......and yet, the odds are that one of THEM will be the one entrusted with that power, after Obama has already had it for a while: a socialist who thinks that gov't isn't big and powerful enough, a closet socialist who accepts bribes from foreign gov'ts and abuses the term "secret", and a serial philanderer who loves Kilo v. City of New London because it helps billionaires kick the little people off their land so he can develop casinos.

We are freakin' doomed already. Giving one of those twits this kind of power would be a coup do grace. I wonder what Bill Gates has been threatened with?

:deadhorse: I'm done.
• Give me Liberty or I'll get up and get it myself.
• I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.
• My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#174

Post by anygunanywhere » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:35 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I wonder what Bill Gates has been threatened with?
Probably nothing.

Bill and Melinda Gates are one of the biggest private donors to Planed Parenthood.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#175

Post by Solaris » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:43 pm

ScottDLS wrote: Except the phone will wipe itself after 10 wrong tries. The gov does not like strong encryption, because they can't break it without some backdoor method of getting the key. In an 8 character password there are ~256 to the 8th power possible passwords. About 18 quadrillion, so at 9 per second it will take you billions of years... and of course the memory will be wiped on the tenth wrong try.
This specific iPhone is a 5C, running iOS 9.x. It is protected by a 6 digit numeric passcode. That is 1 million possible passwords. The crypto engine in this phone can do about 12 tries per second, so worst case is just under 24 hours to solve with Apple's help.

Had alphanumeric passwords been selected, then there would be 77 possible characters with total length of 37, making it impossible for FBI to get in unless he used a simple password.


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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#176

Post by Solaris » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:47 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote: And to add final insult to injury, and I am certain that there is no commercial motive behind it all, now Bill Gates agrees with me :banghead:
Gates seems to be playing both sides of the issue. He has backtracked his comments from yesterday, but does not seem to be willing to commit to one side or the other (he is certainly smart enough to know the issues), and he is now making general statements like "apple should help FBI", which of course Apple had been doing since day 1.


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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#177

Post by parabelum » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:10 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
parabelum wrote:Apple is playing dumb, and Feds are playing benevolent.
For Apple, this isn't about privacy as many of their customers phones have been hacked by outside rats. Mine was one of them.

For Feds, this is about control and dominance in the big data spectrum.

Both parties are playing us for stupid.

Apple or Feds could hire a hacker, and with the use of botnet network generating up to 9 password guesses per second, they could have that phone cracked in under 20 minutes.

Again, they play the people for fools.

Notice also how that clerk in Kentucky got jailed for refusing judges order, yet Cook proudly rejects this judges order and nothing happens.
:headscratch
Except the phone will wipe itself after 10 wrong tries. The gov does not like strong encryption, because they can't break it without some backdoor method of getting the key. In an 8 character password there are ~256 to the 8th power possible passwords. About 18 quadrillion, so at 9 per second it will take you billions of years... and of course the memory will be wiped on the tenth wrong try.

There was an article in the WSJ that said that the 5c can probably be hacked by Apple, but later generations can't. And you can sure bet the software technology already exists to make sure it can never be done again. My understanding is it's already implemented in most recent Android versions. The court may win this one, but next time Apple will be like King Canute ordering the tides back. He shows his courtiers that as powerful as he is only God can order the sea back. :biggrinjester:
You make a good point.

My understanding is that Apple could write code to override the 10 password guess limit, applicable to this phone only, without granting the Feds ability to use this on any other devices.
Then, it would be a matter of time before the phone would be cracked, I think there are networks / supercomputers that are capable of way more then 9/second.

Feds could use the override whenever needed to investigate a terrorist slaughter that already happened, or to intercept anything they have in the pipeline.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#178

Post by SA_Steve » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:17 pm

Lots of nonsense on TV and in this forum so far...total simpleton analysis and conclusions

Watch the future court and congress happenings and testimony from real encryption experts for more information.

There's 200 mostly free apps you can run on smartphones that are unbreakable, these can be stacked on top of native smartphones as another layer.
Yesterday's WSJ front page with three column extension explained lots about the technology and the fact that our gov financed the development of several of these phone loadable encryption apps. Already in heavy use by bad guys.

There's nothing interesting on this guys phone. He stopped icloud backups 44 days before he became known. The authorities spent days dragging a lake looking for the real burner phones that were used.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#179

Post by warnmar10 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:34 pm

There's more than just one iPhone the US wants to access
Remember when the head of the FBI swore blind that authorities only wanted backdoor access to the iPhone in this one, special case? Turns out that his friends over at the Justice Department just blew that claim miles out of the water. The Wall Street Journal has revealed that the DOJ is currently pushing court cases to get access to the data on no less than 12 different iPhones. The paper's sources say that officials are using the All Writs Act, the same 18th-century law that the FBI feels justifies its request for a backdoor.
Update: Bloomberg has seen freshly-opened court documents that relate to the mythical 12 iPhones that the Justice Department is targeting. The devices are covered by nine different access requests, although specific details about the individual cases remain under wraps.
Not all are terror related.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#180

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:44 pm

warnmar10 wrote:
There's more than just one iPhone the US wants to access
Remember when the head of the FBI swore blind that authorities only wanted backdoor access to the iPhone in this one, special case? Turns out that his friends over at the Justice Department just blew that claim miles out of the water. The Wall Street Journal has revealed that the DOJ is currently pushing court cases to get access to the data on no less than 12 different iPhones. The paper's sources say that officials are using the All Writs Act, the same 18th-century law that the FBI feels justifies its request for a backdoor.
Update: Bloomberg has seen freshly-opened court documents that relate to the mythical 12 iPhones that the Justice Department is targeting. The devices are covered by nine different access requests, although specific details about the individual cases remain under wraps.
Not all are terror related.
Another viewpoint: http://www.captainsjournal.com/2016/02/ ... fbi-fight/
• Give me Liberty or I'll get up and get it myself.
• I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.
• My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.
• Independent Minarchist.

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