Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

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mojo84
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#16

Post by mojo84 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:12 pm

Interesting how some seem to think a gang is the same as the NRA, church, service organization, club or other organization set up and intended for legal activities and purposes.

Typically, a gang is established for illegal activities and purposes. One of the criterias for becoming a full gang member is committing a serious felony. Here is some reading.

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gangs/pages/definitions.aspx

It really irks me when people try to compare such gangs with the NRA and other organizations established to do good.

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#17

Post by G26ster » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:20 pm

I guess that leaves out Spanky, Buckwheat, and Alfalfa from the notorious "Our Gang" from ever owning firearms. :mrgreen:


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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#18

Post by flechero » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:35 pm

RoyGBiv wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:43 pm
If I start a "gang" and we all ride motorcycles and help old people carry groceries to their cars at WalMart, Then I get to keep 1A and 2A.

If I start a "gang" and we go out robbing people and selling drugs, that is not only a "gang" but also a "criminal organization", which is a violation of LTC.

I don't see a lot of gray in this.. but.. :confused5
Your first group sounds like a ministry or a club, not a gang. I think the definition lies not within the chosen name of the group but in the actions of it's members.

I do agree however, it should not be a gray area... :tiphat:

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#19

Post by WildBill » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:49 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:41 pm
I asked him if I understood him correctly to say that:
  1. The 1st Amendment protected right to freedom of association means that gang membership a protected right.
  2. There is nothing conditional about association in the 2nd Amendment.
  3. Ergo, Texas gun law is unconstitutional WRT gang affiliation.
He answered that yes, that is exactly what he meant.
Discuss.
I haven't read the blog, but based on your summary, I agree with his premise and his conclusion. :tiphat:
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#20

Post by Flightmare » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:10 pm

mojo84 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:12 pm
Interesting how some seem to think a gang is the same as the NRA, church, service organization, club or other organization set up and intended for legal activities and purposes.

Typically, a gang is established for illegal activities and purposes. One of the criterias for becoming a full gang member is committing a serious felony. Here is some reading.

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gangs/pages/definitions.aspx

It really irks me when people try to compare such gangs with the NRA and other organizations established to do good.
Again, a person who commits a crime (in your example, a felony) should be held accountable for committing said crime. That being said, I still believe that association should not be criminalized. Individuals should be held responsible for the actions they take. You should not have YOUR rights restricted simply because you associate with 1 or more people who may or may not have broken the law.
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#21

Post by bblhd672 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:13 pm

Rob72 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:23 pm
rotor wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:12 pm
I have always wondered how gang membership could be outlawed. Some might say NRA membership should be outlawed. Interesting and I don't have an answer.
You're kidding, right? Criminal enterprise in support of political change is more commonly called, "terrorism."

I would also note that modern interpretation of the First Amendment is largely the produce of, "legislation from the bench." Strict Constitutionalists would say that Political/Religious speech is protected, not the fart-whistling opinions so commonly pulled in under the umbrella.
You have heard the progressive socialists call NRA members terrorists right?
Removal of rights/judgement of guilt by association is a slippery slope.
And no, I am not condoning the illegal activities of any group, whether you call them a gang, a family, an organization or a club.

I agree that modern interpretation of the 1st Amendment is for the most part a far cry from what the founders intended. Well, for the most part, the modern interpretation of the entire Constitution is a far cry from what the founders intended.


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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#22

Post by Chaparral » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:17 pm

IANAL, but it seems to me that membership in a criminal gang constitutes a conspiracy to commit crimes, which is illegal. Also, Texas has the “law of parties” where, if a group of people act together to, for example, commit burglary, and in the course of said burglary, a member of the group commits a murder, the entire group can be charged with murder.

I think that, in the context of this topic, “gang” membership implies conspiracy to commit criminal acts.

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#23

Post by Zoo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:56 pm

I guess the same applies to financial support or membership in an ISIS cell or a Chinese espionage ring, unless one personally committed some other crime.
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#24

Post by The Annoyed Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:02 pm

Chaparral wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:17 pm
IANAL, but it seems to me that membership in a criminal gang constitutes a conspiracy to commit crimes, which is illegal.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that I'm a member of the Crips ... of whom there are thousands in Texas, maybe even tens of thousands. My individual crew just hangs around and drinks a little beer on Friday or Saturday nights; and we joined the Crips just to keep from getting our butts whooped when we walk through our own neighborhood. But another set of Crips across town happens to commit a lot of bank robberies and runs crack houses. My homies and I have no idea what those guys across town plan or commit, and we want no part of it. But I can't own a gun because I'm a Crip?

See what I mean?
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#25

Post by Chaparral » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:43 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:02 pm
Chaparral wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:17 pm
IANAL, but it seems to me that membership in a criminal gang constitutes a conspiracy to commit crimes, which is illegal.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that I'm a member of the Crips ... of whom there are thousands in Texas, maybe even tens of thousands. My individual crew just hangs around and drinks a little beer on Friday or Saturday nights; and we joined the Crips just to keep from getting our butts whooped when we walk through our own neighborhood. But another set of Crips across town happens to commit a lot of bank robberies and runs crack houses. My homies and I have no idea what those guys across town plan or commit, and we want no part of it. But I can't own a gun because I'm a Crip?

See what I mean?
I appreciate the point of your hypothetical, “innocent” Crips. But, I think the key element of the law (see legal definition in the link in post #16) is criminal activity. Either your gang is a criminal gang, or it isn’t. It seems to me if your group isn’t involved in criminal activity, and a prosecutor couldn’t convince a jury otherwise, then you are not prohibited from possessing a firearm. What do you think?


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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#26

Post by treadlightly » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:49 pm

I know several Cossacks, but I didn’t know they were members until after that horrid shootout.

My knee jerk is to despise gangs. On the other hand, the only Cossacks I know wouldn’t trigger the slightest concern in a dark alley. Maybe the local Cossacks “gang” didn’t fit the mold.

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#27

Post by Bitter Clinger » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:06 pm

treadlightly wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:49 pm
I know several Cossacks, but I didn’t know they were members until after that horrid shootout.

My knee jerk is to despise gangs. On the other hand, the only Cossacks I know wouldn’t trigger the slightest concern in a dark alley. Maybe the local Cossacks “gang” didn’t fit the mold.
My grandfather used to steal horse from the Cossacks...the REAL Cossacks.

Membership in a gang signals intent but we cannot gauge intent, only actions. Too bad. I stay out of dark alleys, especially ones with gang members lurking in them. I suspect that they have bad intentions.
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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#28

Post by mojo84 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:00 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:02 pm
Chaparral wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:17 pm
IANAL, but it seems to me that membership in a criminal gang constitutes a conspiracy to commit crimes, which is illegal.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that I'm a member of the Crips ... of whom there are thousands in Texas, maybe even tens of thousands. My individual crew just hangs around and drinks a little beer on Friday or Saturday nights; and we joined the Crips just to keep from getting our butts whooped when we walk through our own neighborhood. But another set of Crips across town happens to commit a lot of bank robberies and runs crack houses. My homies and I have no idea what those guys across town plan or commit, and we want no part of it. But I can't own a gun because I'm a Crip?

See what I mean?
The Crips wouldn't allow your group to be affiliated with or called Crips if that's was your purpose or intent. The consequences you would suffer from falsely claiming to be Crips would be much harsher than what the government would do to you.

Here's another scenario to consider. Get you a leather jacket and put a Banditos patch and a Texas rocker on it. Hop on your Honda or Kawasaki wearing your Banditos colores so you won't get beat up. Ônce you've encountered real Banditos, let ius know how it went.

I would agree with what you guys are saying if the purpose of such organizations was not to commit crimes and require it's members to commit them in order to be a member. Pledging allegiance to and joining an organization that is set up to operate contrary to and violate our nation's laws is not something that should be without consequences.

Should known and admitted MS-13 members be granted asylum and allowed to come into our country just as other immigrants?

If we aren't careful, we could become another Mexico and be overrun by gangsters and drug cartels.

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#29

Post by mojo84 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:00 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:02 pm
Chaparral wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:17 pm
IANAL, but it seems to me that membership in a criminal gang constitutes a conspiracy to commit crimes, which is illegal.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that I'm a member of the Crips ... of whom there are thousands in Texas, maybe even tens of thousands. My individual crew just hangs around and drinks a little beer on Friday or Saturday nights; and we joined the Crips just to keep from getting our butts whooped when we walk through our own neighborhood. But another set of Crips across town happens to commit a lot of bank robberies and runs crack houses. My homies and I have no idea what those guys across town plan or commit, and we want no part of it. But I can't own a gun because I'm a Crip?

See what I mean?
The Crips wouldn't allow your group to be affiliated with or called Crips if that's was your purpose or intent. The consequences you would suffer from falsely claiming to be Crips would be much harsher than what the government would do to you.

Here's another scenario to consider. Get you a leather jacket and put a Banditos patch and a Texas rocker on it. Hop on your Honda or Kawasaki wearing your Banditos colores so you won't get beat up. Ônce you've encountered real Banditos, let ius know how it went.

I would agree with what you guys are saying if the purpose of such organizations was not to commit crimes and require it's members to commit them in order to be a member. Pledging allegiance to and joining an organization that is set up to operate contrary to and violate our nation's laws is not something that should be without consequences.

Should known and admitted MS-13 members be granted asylum and allowed to come into our country just as other immigrants?

If we aren't careful, we could become another Mexico and be overrun by gangsters and drug cartels.

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Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

#30

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:07 am

I am pretty certain the crips don't have any crews that only sit around and play chess with each other. To even be a member of a street gang requires one put in "work". Most that I know of require the commission of crime to become a member.
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