Incredible account of Parkland shooting

As the name indicates, this is the place for gun-related political discussions. It is not open to other political topics.

Moderators: Charles L. Cotton, carlson1

User avatar

Flightmare
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 2107
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:00 pm
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#16

Post by Flightmare » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:13 am

Ruark wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:08 am
Every school board in the country should be required to read this report. Every police department, too.

It's hard to swallow some of the things that jump off the screen at you:

- one of the first armed officers to arrive runs toward the building, then stops and directs traffic

- LEOs pull in, put on their bulletproof vests, then stand there hiding behind their cars

- a team, guided by video security cameras showing Cruz in the building, slowly moving closer, not realizing that Cruz was drinking a coke in a Subway across the street. Nobody had shared that the video had a 20-minute delay.

....it's a long list. If I were the parent of one of those victims, I would be preparing the Mother and Father of All Lawsuits.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/brow ... story.html
“One judge is correct, the other with be overturned,” wrote Bill Murphy. “The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. Police do not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm.”
Deplorable lunatic since 2016


howdy
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1218
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:16 pm
Location: Katy

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#17

Post by howdy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:35 am

Another video recreation:
Texas LTC Instructor
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA Life Patron Member TSRA Member
USMC 1972-1979


philip964
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 7238
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#18

Post by philip964 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:42 am

Companion article

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/brow ... story.html

What went right on the second floor.


LTUME1978
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:25 pm
Location: Alvin, TX

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#19

Post by LTUME1978 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:55 pm

Watching that reconstruction of events is sad and sickening. What a bunch of cowards/inept/untrained school officials and law enforcement (police captain was probably among the worst of the bunch but there are several in the running for that).

In early 2016, I attended a 3 day Citizen Response to Active Shooter class taught by Paul Howe (Owner of Combat Shooting and Tactics in Nacogdothes) . I expected the class to be mostly made up of teachers (as Paul trains a lot of teachers (for school districts) in this program) but the vast majority were law enforcement and one judge (no teachers at this class). I was surprised that there were so many law enforcement in the class and asked about that. They told me that they were there for training (some out of their own pocket) as the requirements now are that the first person goes in when he or she arrives at the scene. This was not new policy in 2016. Yes, it can be a very difficult situation but that is part of the job. Departments need to be training their officers for this type of event and doing refresher drills often (it was an intense 3 days at the class, real life would have been significantly worse). Schools need to have training on how to deal with a situation like this (should be arming teachers/administrators).

Hope there is a big house cleaning in the law enforcement and school administration there starting at the top.

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 4617
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#20

Post by Jusme » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:05 pm

Sad, sickening, infuriating, no... That doesn't come close to describing it. I can't express what I want to say on here without violating several forum rules. I knew there was a litany of incompetence, but I had no idea it was an epidemic.
As a former LEO, I am appalled, at the inaction, of the Coward County SO.
I know that several deputies, have resigned, or been reassigned, and some school officials have also been located to other places ( which to me only relocates a problem and doesn't solve it)
I can't believe the pure cowardice of the deputies, and school security monitors. Some school teachers and coaches, reacted properly, and are heroes, but so many lives could have been saved, if there had been at least one person had acted, to stop it before it started.
But instead let's blame the gun, a civil rights organization, or the Constitution itself.
Cruz could have been stopped long before he took his rifle to a school, where he was no longer a student, but no one wanted to take action.
The blood of those kids, and teachers, are dripping from the hands, of the Sheriff,his deputies, and every voter, who put him in office, and continue to support him!!!
Ok time to get my blood pressure down some.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 6652
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#21

Post by ELB » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:24 pm

Fox News is reporting that the new Florida Governor has suspended Sheriff Israel
USAF 1982-2005
____________
The Most Interesting Texan in the World. :txflag:

User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 6652
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#22

Post by ELB » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:41 pm

USAF 1982-2005
____________
The Most Interesting Texan in the World. :txflag:

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 4617
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#23

Post by Jusme » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:40 am

Townhall is reporting the the Coward County Sheriff is stepping down.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... g-n2538717

Happening way too late.JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

User avatar

troglodyte
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16 pm
Location: Hockley County
Contact:

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#24

Post by troglodyte » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:01 pm

Here is the commission report.

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/MSDHS/CommissionReport.pdf

It should be required reading for every LEO, school board, administrator, and school guardian.

Here is an animation of the shooter's movements and victims. (Whoops, didn't see Howdy already posted)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Laizg39LsuQ

Using these two and the account originally linked you can get a pretty accurate feel for what went on.
Talon Firearms Training
License To Carry Instructor
School Safety Instructor
NRA Instructor - Basic pistol, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home.

User avatar

PriestTheRunner
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 421
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:33 pm

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#25

Post by PriestTheRunner » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:34 pm

This pretty much sums it all up right here:
3.2 BCPS and MSDHS Active Assailant Response Policies and Training
On February 14, 2018, Broward County Public Schools and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School did not have an established active assailant response policy. There were no written and trained-on policies regarding Code Red and lockdown procedures.
-Page 49

And I would add that this statement applied to the school, the SRO, the Sheriff Department and basically everyone involved.

Sad.


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#26

Post by crazy2medic » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:15 pm

No Excuses, we learned after Columbine that getting in and stopping the shooter must be done quickly, stats says every two seconds somebody dies, wether they had actual training or not, they had guns and the ability to stop Cruz, instead they balled up outside and did nothing! The little psycho bears the ultimate responsibility but the Broward county sheriffs dept is culpable for failure to intervene!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

troglodyte
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16 pm
Location: Hockley County
Contact:

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#27

Post by troglodyte » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:26 pm

crazy2medic wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:15 pm
No Excuses, we learned after Columbine that getting in and stopping the shooter must be done quickly, stats says every two seconds somebody dies, wether they had actual training or not, they had guns and the ability to stop Cruz, instead they balled up outside and did nothing! The little psycho bears the ultimate responsibility but the Broward county sheriffs dept is culpable for failure to intervene!

2:21:38 - first shot
2:24:35 - first outside officer arrives, Kratz. 24 had been shot. 11 fatally.
2:25:18 - last casualty. 34 total shot, 17 fatally.
Less than 4 minutes

Kratz could not have gotten to the shooter to stop any of the deaths or injury before it was over even if he had gone straight in and not stopped to,instead, direct traffic. This is not meant to excuse or justify any of the LEO actions. This is to stress the importance of faculty and staff being trained, and even armed. The police just can’t get there fast enough, sadly, even if they did everything right. Hardening the schools is a way to dissuade or buy a little more time.

Peterson was worthless.

Let’s not forget that several school personnel had the opportunity to call for a lockdown and didn’t for whatever reason. Their limited training was not effective nor reinforced.
Talon Firearms Training
License To Carry Instructor
School Safety Instructor
NRA Instructor - Basic pistol, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home.


Topic author
Ruark
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#28

Post by Ruark » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:57 am

troglodyte wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:26 pm


2:21:38 - first shot
2:24:35 - first outside officer arrives, Kratz. 24 had been shot. 11 fatally.
2:25:18 - last casualty. 34 total shot, 17 fatally.
Less than 4 minutes

Kratz could not have gotten to the shooter to stop any of the deaths or injury before it was over even if he had gone straight in and not stopped to,instead, direct traffic.
This, I think, is why I think the value of armed personnel is overestimated. Yes, I think we should have some armed personnel, but it by no means will solve the problem and make everybody safe. Think of the typical classroom building. You have a LONG hallway, with classroom doors going down both sides. You hear (ASSUMING you're in that building) a gun go off down at one end. Bang, bang, bang.... and every 2 seconds, it's another kid dying. What will you do? Run down the hall with your gun and locate and skillfully engage the shooter? Easier said than done; you don't even know what classroom he's in. Meanwhile, bang-bang-bang-bang.....

Even if the teacher in that room just happens to be armed, it's unlikely that he or she is actually WEARING the weapon. More likely, it's in a desk drawer, possibly locked. If a shooter holding a cocked AR bursts into the room, it's very possible that that teacher will be dead long before a gun can be brought into reach. I'm sorry, I just can't visualize a teacher standing in front of a room full of kids with a 1911 hanging from her belt.

Additionally, most modern urban high schools have MANY buildings, including temporary buildings set up to handle student overflow. I've seen big urban high schools with over a dozen temporary buildings, plus gyms, shops, libraries, admin buildings, vocational buildings, health centers, cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. as well as several regular hallway-type classroom buildings. How is an armed officer in Building 38, going to get to Building 3 in time to save lives? It's not going to happen.

Of course, you could have an armed officer walking every hallway on the campus, but that's not going to happen, either, for many reasons.

I thing one step that needs to be taken is limiting campus access in the first place. There needs to be an entrance point where only vehicles with a current valid sticker can enter. That would help some. Of course, a current student would still be able to enter the campus in his own vehicle, carrying a weapon. So to stop him, you'd need a metal detector at every entrance to every building.

All that being said, how would you implement a really thorough, effective security program for the school in the picture below?

We talk about arming teachers and school security, but when it comes to actually implementing something, the challenge is somewhat daunting.
bigcampus.JPG
-Ruark

User avatar

Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6233
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#29

Post by Pawpaw » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 pm

Ruark wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:57 am
All that being said, how would you implement a really thorough, effective security program for the school in the picture below?

We talk about arming teachers and school security, but when it comes to actually implementing something, the challenge is somewhat daunting.
bigcampus.JPG
The first thing you need to do is to widen that narrow view. The goal is not to "implement a really thorough, effective security program". The true goal is to create a safe environment for the kids.

Simply putting out the knowledge that some of the teachers are armed will likely stop 99% of attacks before they even begin. Many mass shooters, like the Colorado theater killer, drive right past other potential shooting areas just to get to a gun free zone. How many university shootings have ever happened in a university where concealed carry was allowed? The answer is "ZERO".

IMHO, armed teachers should be required to have their pistol on their person, in deep concealment, at all times. No one, student or otherwise, should know which teachers are armed. Of course, the Principal needs to know, but other teachers do not.

It is that unknown... "Some teachers are armed, but I don't know which ones."... that will give the potential school shooter pause. "Maybe that's not such a good idea."
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

NRA Benefactor Life Member

User avatar

troglodyte
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16 pm
Location: Hockley County
Contact:

Re: Incredible account of Parkland shooting

#30

Post by troglodyte » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:55 pm

Ruark wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:57 am
troglodyte wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:26 pm


2:21:38 - first shot
2:24:35 - first outside officer arrives, Kratz. 24 had been shot. 11 fatally.
2:25:18 - last casualty. 34 total shot, 17 fatally.
Less than 4 minutes

Kratz could not have gotten to the shooter to stop any of the deaths or injury before it was over even if he had gone straight in and not stopped to,instead, direct traffic.
This, I think, is why I think the value of armed personnel is overestimated. Yes, I think we should have some armed personnel, but it by no means will solve the problem and make everybody safe. Think of the typical classroom building. You have a LONG hallway, with classroom doors going down both sides. You hear (ASSUMING you're in that building) a gun go off down at one end. Bang, bang, bang.... and every 2 seconds, it's another kid dying. What will you do? Run down the hall with your gun and locate and skillfully engage the shooter? Easier said than done; you don't even know what classroom he's in. Meanwhile, bang-bang-bang-bang.....

Even if the teacher in that room just happens to be armed, it's unlikely that he or she is actually WEARING the weapon. More likely, it's in a desk drawer, possibly locked. If a shooter holding a cocked AR bursts into the room, it's very possible that that teacher will be dead long before a gun can be brought into reach. I'm sorry, I just can't visualize a teacher standing in front of a room full of kids with a 1911 hanging from her belt.

Additionally, most modern urban high schools have MANY buildings, including temporary buildings set up to handle student overflow. I've seen big urban high schools with over a dozen temporary buildings, plus gyms, shops, libraries, admin buildings, vocational buildings, health centers, cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. as well as several regular hallway-type classroom buildings. How is an armed officer in Building 38, going to get to Building 3 in time to save lives? It's not going to happen.

Of course, you could have an armed officer walking every hallway on the campus, but that's not going to happen, either, for many reasons.

I thing one step that needs to be taken is limiting campus access in the first place. There needs to be an entrance point where only vehicles with a current valid sticker can enter. That would help some. Of course, a current student would still be able to enter the campus in his own vehicle, carrying a weapon. So to stop him, you'd need a metal detector at every entrance to every building.

All that being said, how would you implement a really thorough, effective security program for the school in the picture below?

We talk about arming teachers and school security, but when it comes to actually implementing something, the challenge is somewhat daunting.
bigcampus.JPG
Arming teachers is not a perfect solution, not anymore than putting in metal detectors or fencing the campus. It has to be a layered approach and, even at that, it will not be perfect.

Arming personnel does allow the chance to fight back and neutralize the threat. Nobody is expecting them to run down the hall through a hail of lead and engage a unseen threat. If they have the opportunity then they might get lucky. Even if they are able to put a few rounds safely above his head it may distract him long enough to get the advantage or keep him pinned down. I just sat in a Safety Committee meeting last night at a school where we were trying to figure out how to have at least one Guardian in each primary use building. No it's not perfect but it's a start. Since the school makes public they have armed Guardians it may help in deterrence. We will likely never know. We also talked about training, fencing, communication, access, and a number of other solutions. Their Guardians, and most of the other schools I have trained, require on-body carry.

Your whole comment generally comes across as defeatist. It is a tough problem that is going to require a multilayered approach. There are so many factors involved that each school, even down to each building, may require a different approach. While there is a shift in thinking, most communities around here don't like the idea of perimeter fencing or metal detectors, "it makes the school look like a prison" so we'll have to work around that. SRO's, IDs, clear backpacks, armed faculty, metal detectors, frisking, training, body scans, security cameras, radios, locked doors, fencing, controlled access, and school monitors are all tools and they all have their strengths and their failings.

A combination of several tools drastically increase the safety of the students and school personnel. Each school has to weigh the costs, financially, mentally, and time-wise. In a perfect world there would be money falling from heaven to make the necessary changes but, then again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this problem. We can cry "but the children" and think everyone will be willing to fund the necessary changes but too much of the public still believes that "it can't happen here." Unbelievable, yet true.

Fencing is expensive, metal detectors are expensive, SROs are expensive, security cameras are expensive but they are effective (save Peterson). Locking doors, monitoring entrances, being aware are (usually) free. Radios, IDs, and arming teachers are usually low cost. So which ones should we do first? I'm all in favor of all of them but raising funds for a fence and metal detector is going to take more time than keeping doors locked, being aware, and allowing a few teachers to carry. Let's do the things we can do now and work towards the larger items.

When it comes down to it, like my own protection, if a bad guy is shooting I want the personnel to have the ability to shoot back. I also want the school training the staff (both armed and unarmed), hardening the campus, and finding ways to help keep the school safer.

No it's not perfect and it gripes me.
Talon Firearms Training
License To Carry Instructor
School Safety Instructor
NRA Instructor - Basic pistol, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home.

Post Reply

Return to “Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues”