Prepatory actions to potential trouble

[frankie_the_yankee]

Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Make car carry legal, and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Oh, wait... come Saturday, they'll all be legal, so bad guys who never, ever! illegally carried guns, are bound to start.

Dodge City.

Blood in the streets.

Right?

I'm not saying we will have Dodoge City and/or blood in the streets.

But it will certainly be easier for a BG to "blend in" with non-BG's while keeping a gun handy in his car. This is because during a traffic stop, LE can easily determine if there are any outstanding warrants, but has no way of performing anything like a criminal/mental background check.

If something is easier to do, more people will do it.

Same with open carry and Vermont/Alaska style carry (i.e. no CHL needed).

As I said, other states have car carry with no great problems, so I am not expecting any here. Just pointing out that it is easier for an unqualified (i.e. criminal/mental defect) person to carry without being "caught".

And just one more point. While many jurisdictions currently allow for open carry "on paper", there are very few places in the USA where open carry is not an "attention getter" in real life. Again, I'm talking reality here, not some internet fantasy. I have travelled the country pretty thoroughly, and I can say unequivically that open carry by non-LEO is **RARE**. Very often, an LE response results to check out the "man with a gun". AZ is a big exception to this. But almost any other urban areas are very problematic.

Go to that opencarry.org website and read all the stories about people getting busted or harrassed while carrying openly in places where it is "legal".

Not to mention all the tactical problems.

[seamusTX]

And so many here want to make it legal to open carry. Will you all greet each other instead of hand shaking, but by grabbing your own gun butt, "just in case"?

I can speak only for myself here. At present, if I see someone carrying openly, I do not automatically become alarmed or duck for cover. I do not assume they are LEO, either. I evaluate the totality of the circumstances.

I also don't shake hands with people unless I have some business with them, but the whole purpose of hand-shaking was to show that neither party was a threat.

Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Since many of them are known to law enforcement or signify their status by clothing or tatoos, I rather doubt they will.

- Jim

[phddan]

I open carried in Alamogordo N.M. when I was stationed there.
No problems at all. Never heard of problems from open carrying there either.
I see the same type of hand wringing going on over open carry as I did over concealed carry.
Buncha hype.

Dan

[stevie_d_64]

I see plain clothed leo's all the time, and have never felt the need to give them a second thought.
However I do try to get a better look at their guns and holsters, while trying not to look like I'm looking.

I look at the person, how he is carrying himself, what he is doing, what is his eyes "saying".

I wish more leo's would open carry in plain clothes to get the masses used to seeing it. I think it would give us non-leo's a better chance at being able to get the laws changed where we could open carry.

Dan

I believe Dan has the right idea here...

No one needs to be a Law Enforcement or former LEO to have their personal "templates" of how we evaluate who is, and who is not a potential threat scrutinized into oblivion...No ones threshold is the same...And you should always be flexible in how you apply it and be ready to adjust as the overall situation presents itself...

I know its a lot, even to me, but taking in the full scope of how important self-defense is to each and every one of us, it is prudent to take the way we prepare our minds as much as the physical preparations we take in the same instance...

I believe that there are a few things you should be able to do that do not involve doing anything physical to ramp up your potential response to a perceived threat...

[Venus Pax]

I would not personally open carry even if it were legal. For me, concealed is the wiser choice.
However, I'm usually not alarmed at the sight of plain-clothes individuals carrying, especially if it's in a holster and they are behaving appropriately. (Now if someone in gang attire started flashing a weapon or if the appropriately-dressed individual started acting strangely, I might try to discreetly flip the safety off on mine if I could do so.)

[stevie_d_64]

[riminals do not carry openly, especially when eating in sit-down restaurants.

- Jim

That is because most people react to open carry like the dude that started this whole discussion. like this

And so many here want to make it legal to open carry. Will you all greet each other instead of hand shaking, but by grabbing your own gun butt, "just in case"?

Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

These are good observations...And the irony of it all reeks...Rightfully so...

But I guess I want to stay on topic (ok here goes , glad I got that out of the way )...

The topic from what I understand is how we should react to the "sight" of a gun, holstered, not holstered, how the person is dressed, how they carry themselves...

Every single bit of this is dependent upon how a person who is carrying is perceived...And that is dependent upon how each and every one of us does that...And no two people are exactly the same in how you accomplish this...

So it boils down to a personal commitment to develop methods of how to see through the "surface" layers, how a potential threat presents themselves, and how you should develop methods that do not involve too much physical "tells" in how you could react to those perceptions...

Or...

Maybe this could be too much to do about nothing...This could be true as well...

Just my opinion...

[stevie_d_64]

I would not personally open carry even if it were legal. For me, concealed is the wiser choice.
However, I'm usually not alarmed at the sight of plain-clothes individuals carrying, especially if it's in a holster and they are behaving appropriately. (Now if someone in gang attire started flashing a weapon or if the appropriately-dressed individual started acting strangely, I might try to discreetly flip the safety off on mine if I could do so.)

For the most part I agree...But then again this is not so much about open carry...Right???

On a funny note...Can you imagine what it woudl sound like if a bunch of us got together at some joint to eat pizza after a full day of "Shooter Readyyyyy???"...

The sound of all those safeties coming off would be deafening!!!

Except for the Glockers...Thats one step that is un-necessary...

Yeah, so I opened a can of worms...So what!

[frankie_the_yankee]

These are good observations...And the irony of it all reeks...Rightfully so...

But I guess I want to stay on topic (ok here goes , glad I got that out of the way )...

The topic from what I understand is how we should react to the "sight" of a gun, holstered, not holstered, how the person is dressed, how they carry themselves...

Every single bit of this is dependent upon how a person who is carrying is perceived...And that is dependent upon how each and every one of us does that...And no two people are exactly the same in how you accomplish this......
So it boils down to a personal commitment to develop methods of how to see through the "surface" layers, how a potential threat presents themselves, and how you should develop methods that do not involve too much physical "tells" in how you could react to those perceptions...

Or...

Maybe this could be too much to do about nothing...This could be true as well...

Just my opinion

Whatcha y'all are talkin' about here is known as "profiling". You see someone carrying openly and check out how they look, how they are dressed, how they are acting, etc. and try to figure out from the info available whether they are a GG or a BG.

Lots of potential problems and issues there.

[Nazrat]

There are no problems with profiling by any private citizens.

Profiling by an LEO does cause issues. There is a good argument on whether those profiling issues are valid.

[stevie_d_64]

Whatcha y'all are talkin' about here is known as "profiling". You see someone carrying openly and check out how they look, how they are dressed, how they are acting, etc. and try to figure out from the info available whether they are a GG or a BG.

Lots of potential problems and issues there.

For instance, and for whom???

Nazrat started off good, but the last sentence drifted with the words "good argument" and "valid"...

And this one is NOT going to go the way the other thread went when someone posted a self pic of them in leather, chains and tattoos...I do not judge or profile based totally upon surface conditions...

I personally look beyond that and not allow that to influence what I think of a person...I would think by now some people would know me to be a bit deeper than that...

So we be not going there...K?

[Texbow]

Steve, I agree with you but I think Nazrat was referring to profile issues with LEO involvement and even those concerns raise a good argument and validity as to weather or not they should be allowed to do so.

I totally agree that it's more about actions rather then how one dresses, looks, etc.

[stevie_d_64]

Steve, I agree with you but I think Nazrat was referring to profile issues with LEO involvement and even those concerns raise a good argument and validity as to weather or not they should be allowed to do so.

I totally agree that it's more about actions rather then how one dresses, looks, etc.

Absolutely...And that's a political issue, not a self-defense issue...I think thats what he was referring to as well...

Politics do not concern me in regards to self-defense...I don't believe they should be a concern to anyone, even Law Enforcement...They run into this more than we do, and thats what gets some of them killed...

I do not tolerate that at all...

[Venus Pax]

There are no problems with profiling by any private citizens.

Profiling by an LEO does cause issues. There is a good argument on whether those profiling issues are valid.

Some types of profiling by LEOs is perfectly legal; there are even departments devoted to it. Some LEOs specialize in profiling a particular type of offender, for example.
ETA: It's actually very interesting if you ever get a chance to read up on some of their work.

[Nazrat]

I think Texbow stated the meaning of my post. I am an attorney. I can find an argument in anything. I can find a good argument in most things.

IMO, profiling is a necessary part of effective law enforcement. Profiling is distinguished from racism. I don't want to go any further down that path in this thread. Others will disagree with any profiling by law enforcement. This is where issues arise.

As a private citizen, you are foolish if you start grabbing for your grip upon seeing an elderly lady wheeling herself into a restaurant. As a private citizen, you are foolish if don't prepare when a group of young males 15-25 enter a restaurant acting oddly.

In my field, politics and the law cross paths all too frequently. So, my perspective is that of someone who daily has to walk the fine line between enforcing the law and working for an elected official. Trust me, there are some conflicts.

[stevie_d_64]

I think Texbow stated the meaning of my post. I am an attorney. I can find an argument in anything. I can find a good argument in most things.

IMO, profiling is a necessary part of effective law enforcement. Profiling is distinguished from racism. I don't want to go any further down that path in this thread. Others will disagree with any profiling by law enforcement. This is where issues arise.

As a private citizen, you are foolish if you start grabbing for your grip upon seeing an elderly lady wheeling herself into a restaurant. As a private citizen, you are foolish if don't prepare when a group of young males 15-25 enter a restaurant acting oddly.

In my field, politics and the law cross paths all too frequently. So, my perspective is that of someone who daily has to walk the fine line between enforcing the law and working for an elected official. Trust me, there are some conflicts.

I understand what you mean there...