Church Meeting on CHL Topics

[NotRPB]

Interesting church day. After services ...Our monthly church business meeting with the whole church present.

We used to have about 30% of the men armed, as well as a few ladies.
The last year or 2, Several "got around to" getting their LTC, but....I had been the only one carrying "consistently" after a few deacons who were retired LEOs etc passed away, other members moved to other cities etc ...and the others who could have carried at church... "left home without it" because 1 excuse or another. (I was thanked for a few very brief on topic educational lessons about carrying and equipment etc by the Pastor of this church and a Deacon from another one.)
A FEW elderly ladies thanked me for carrying...
Today over 84% of the men in the congregation carried (plus some ladies.) Visitors to our church from a sister church in a nearby town announced we'd be well protected at their church too.

[SewTexas]

Sounds like a good idea. Again, love this forum w/ all the great information.

The errors I have seen in our security team:
1. 30.06 and 30.07 signs on both entrances. I have a letter from clergy, assuming security team has some sort of documentation. I think it is confusing to give effective notice and effective consent at the same time. When I brought up that security team not there at all times, “well we cannot protect individuals at all times”.

Agreed on the error. I won't attend a church (or any business, anymore) with these postings.

yeh, not attending a church with an .06 sign, just not

[Grayling813]

In response to the church shooting last week, my church put out a text message to the mailing list asking all LTC holders to hang back after service this Sunday. I'm eager to see what they have to say - the pastor is LTC and our unofficial security team contains at least 1 active LEO, so I know it's not going to be anti-gun. I wonder if they plan on formalizing the security team and discussing tactics and plans of action? Will update next week.

Did the after church meeting with LTC holders happen? If so, are you able to share the details of the meeting?

[imkopaka]

So the meeting was...interesting. I'm glad I attended because clearly they need my help

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up. Maybe 3 or 4 of them have any real training outside of target plinking. We will have our first meeting sometime in the next 2 weeks to discuss our plan of action in more detail.

I had one person approach me and ask to meet with me for personal 1-on-1 training on marksmanship, and offered to help train the group. I don't hold any current certifications, but at one time I was a combat marksmanship coach for the Marine Corps and fired in several competitions before I left active duty. I also took some advanced combat courses when I worked for TDCJ, so I've got a fair amount of knowledge in shooting and in training others to shoot. It was suggested that we find a place to train and get together every quarter and practice. It was also suggested that members would have to qualify on a course of fire to remain on the team.

The leader of the meeting was an LEO for 30 years (including chief of police for 7 or 8). He either has forgotten that laws exist or doesn't understand that private citizens are not cops - he honestly suggested church security members taking suspicious people (such as wearing a trench coat in summer) into a separate room and frisking them. I was quick to tell him how illegal, unethical, and unnecessary this was. Very glad I attended so I could put the brakes on that.

The pastor suggested putting signs on the 2 main entrances similar to the school signs that say something like "Staff is armed and trained to protect against threats to this congregation." I suggested "The Lord protects this flock, but so do Springfield and Glock"

There were a lot of good suggestions thrown around but nothing was explored yet - this was evidently more of a meeting to gauge interest and learn demographics. The meeting later this month will be more focused and more productive. It was nice to see that 30-40% of the congregation carries though.

[ELB]

"...you need a cold-blooded person ..."

That pretty much is a requirement for the whole security deal.

And planning procedures ahead of time is key. Not that real life will happen according to plan, but the planning part is important for people to know what to do and what is possible, and not have to make it up on the fly. The point is to work through what the medical procedures are based on what resources are available. If you're five blocks from a Level 1 or 2 trauma center, I would think real hard about whether waiting on an ambulance makes sense. If the closest trauma center is 50 miles, well, that's a different story, and maybe you need to mark out a helipad.


John Hopkins University surveyed several years of trauma patient data and concluded that GSW and stabbing victims who were brought directly to the ED survived at significantly higher rates than those who were brought by ambulance, and the mechanism seemed to be they got to a surgeon earlier. The big leaks have to be stopped quickly, just adding fluid doesn't make up for it. Philadelphia has adopted the procedure that their on-scene police can make the decision to transport immediately, and at least anecdotally this has provided a higher survival rate.

This is not a blanket solution to GSW to the chest, but it is one of many things to consider. It is certainly no more serious an issue than deciding to have armed members fight back against armed adversaries in the first place.

[LucasMcCain]

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up.

This seems strange to me. If you're not mentally prepared and willing to take a life if necessary, why are you carrying a gun? I feel like the soul searching and self knowledge to make the decision that you are willing to take life to save life is something most people would accomplish before making the decision to carry a gun. Clearly I'm wrong, but it surprises me.

[Grayling813]

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up.

This seems strange to me. If you're not mentally prepared and willing to take a life if necessary, why are you carrying a gun? I feel like the soul searching and self knowledge to make the decision that you are willing to take life to save life is something most people would accomplish before making the decision to carry a gun. Clearly I'm wrong, but it surprises me.

Sometimes the sheep are armed so as to appear to be sheepdogs. But they are still just sheep.
Don’t get me wrong, not judging, that’s just how it is.

[imkopaka]

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up.

This seems strange to me. If you're not mentally prepared and willing to take a life if necessary, why are you carrying a gun? I feel like the soul searching and self knowledge to make the decision that you are willing to take life to save life is something most people would accomplish before making the decision to carry a gun. Clearly I'm wrong, but it surprises me.

I was wondering when someone would notice that.

I was a little shocked myself, but after thinking about it it kind of makes sense. They might carry because they're fairly confident they could shoot someone actively attacking them, but in a church with 5 possible exits, maybe they don't trust themselves not to run rather than fight? Additionally, it's possible they don't trust themselves to be able to shoot accurately enough to hit someone from across a crowded room. It's also possible they don't know one way or the other and they aren't willing to take an official position tasked with protecting others without being sure. Many reasons why they might carry normally without signing up to protect others.

[oljames3]

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up.

This seems strange to me. If you're not mentally prepared and willing to take a life if necessary, why are you carrying a gun? I feel like the soul searching and self knowledge to make the decision that you are willing to take life to save life is something most people would accomplish before making the decision to carry a gun. Clearly I'm wrong, but it surprises me.

Agreed. When the evil threat presents, we will likely not have time for soul searching. I made the decision that I could kill another human in September of 1973, at Ft Leonard Wood, MO, under the gentle guidance of SFC Austin and SGT Jett. Most civilians do not get to benefit from such efficient education.

We need to know, right now, whether our self-defense firearm is a tool or a woobie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZYQ-B2sdBU

[Liberty]

The decision on whether to join a church safety team is a lot more than just "Am I willing to take another life?" I think the biggest doubt for most toters might be of actual training. Most of us understand that we lack the skills that are necessary to work as an efficient team. Training involves not only time and energy but constantly reassessing the willingness to take a life.


The biggest issue that I would have with joining such a team is that it is a big distraction from why we attend church in the first place. Focusing on the sermon, and prayers, or potential threats within the congregation.

[imkopaka]

The decision on whether to join a church safety team is a lot more than just "Am I willing to take another life?" I think the biggest doubt for most toters might be of actual training. Most of us understand that we lack the skills that are necessary to work as an efficient team. Training involves not only time and energy but constantly reassessing the willingness to take a life.


The biggest issue that I would have with joining such a team is that it is a big distraction from why we attend church in the first place. Focusing on the sermon, and prayers, or potential threats within the congregation.

I agree - however without making that decision all the training is moot. I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make. Without that choice the training amounts to nothing. I am actually planning some extensive training on different things - target shooting and marksmanship fundamentals, weapon care and maintenance, LTC laws and best practice, scenario drills, adrenaline drills, first aid and CPR, evac routes and mass casualty drills, etc.

[LucasMcCain]

Learned that easily 40 people were carrying yesterday. Not sure how many carry regularly, but they were carrying when they knew there was a meeting. They passed a sign up sheet for people who were interested in forming a formal security team. After they made it clear you needed to be willing to take a life, about 12 people signed up.

This seems strange to me. If you're not mentally prepared and willing to take a life if necessary, why are you carrying a gun? I feel like the soul searching and self knowledge to make the decision that you are willing to take life to save life is something most people would accomplish before making the decision to carry a gun. Clearly I'm wrong, but it surprises me.

I was wondering when someone would notice that.

I was a little shocked myself, but after thinking about it it kind of makes sense. They might carry because they're fairly confident they could shoot someone actively attacking them, but in a church with 5 possible exits, maybe they don't trust themselves not to run rather than fight? Additionally, it's possible they don't trust themselves to be able to shoot accurately enough to hit someone from across a crowded room. It's also possible they don't know one way or the other and they aren't willing to take an official position tasked with protecting others without being sure. Many reasons why they might carry normally without signing up to protect others.

Put in that context, that makes a lot more sense to me.

[Grayling813]

The decision on whether to join a church safety team is a lot more than just "Am I willing to take another life?" I think the biggest doubt for most toters might be of actual training. Most of us understand that we lack the skills that are necessary to work as an efficient team. Training involves not only time and energy but constantly reassessing the willingness to take a life.


The biggest issue that I would have with joining such a team is that it is a big distraction from why we attend church in the first place. Focusing on the sermon, and prayers, or potential threats within the congregation.

I agree - however without making that decision all the training is moot. I can train someone to shoot well; I can't train them to take a life - that's a choice only they can make. Without that choice the training amounts to nothing. I am actually planning some extensive training on different things - target shooting and marksmanship fundamentals, weapon care and maintenance, LTC laws and best practice, scenario drills, adrenaline drills, first aid and CPR, evac routes and mass casualty drills, etc.

Running scenarios with airsoft pistols (and airsoft rifles for bad guys) may help get people past the question of "can I point my pistol at a bad guy and pull the trigger?"