Overheard at the Gun Shop

[troglodyte]

Well it was actually related to me by a couple of friends who when to the shop. Both related the same story to me in separate conversations.

They are getting ready to take their CHL class this weekend and neither has a handgun so they went to window shop.

A counterman at a local shop told them that Glock had the trigger safety and the XD had the trigger and grip safety. I'm nodding along until they included that both guns had an additional safety. I thought they would say something like a trigger bar but to my dismay they, yes both of them, said that racking the slide was the other safety.

Now maybe the counterman meant it wouldn't fire until you racked the slide and operated the other safeties but both of them understood that they had to rack the slide, at the moment of need, to unsafe the gun. I guess you do to fire it but to classify it as another safety is a bit much.

I hope I/they misunderstood. Regardless of how the counterman meant it, they thought it was a separate safety. Miscommunication at best, poor representation at worst.

[MoJo]

Nothing like a gunstore commando.

[zbordas]

I personally prefer guns that has safety switch. At least you have a choice not to use it. I agree. Refering to the racking the slide as a safety feature is a but rough

[flintknapper]

Apparently, they had (unknowingly) been advised to carry the weapon without a round in the chamber.

That is the only other measure that could provide another level of safety (besides keeping your finger off the trigger).

[tbranch]

While I have always carried with one in the chamber, I used to be uncomfortable with a semi-auto without a manual safety. I think it goes back to the military where we always carried the Beretta with the safety on.

After carrying and shooting the DAO P3AT for a while, I've decided it's no different than carrying a revolver. It just requires one to be a bit more careful, not that anyone should depend on a safety of any kind.

Tom

[nuparadigm]

Gun store commandos are a never-ending source of amusement.

[troglodyte]

I reminded them that the only safety that really counted was between their ears.
All the others are just back ups.

I really do hope they just misunderstood. Maybe something along the lines of "This XD has a trigger safety and a grip safety and before you can fire the gun you must rack the slide to load a round." In context I might could see this being heard as an additional "safety".

Either way, I will continue to help them and answer their questions as best as I can.

[WildBill]

Gun store commandos are a never-ending source of amusement.

One of my favorites is: "You don't want to buy a .380, if you shoot someone with it, you will just make them mad."

[The Annoyed Man]

That is the only other measure that could provide another level of safety (besides keeping your finger off the trigger).

You mean, "keep your booger hook off the bang switch," don't you?

[Liko81]

Ah yes, Israeli carry. Intimidating (a miniature version of a shotgun cha-chak) and very safe (even if all safeties fail, the firing pin cannot discharge an empty chamber), but slow and 2-handed.

If you do not trust a gun design enough to carry it with one in the pipe, don't carry it. It's the reason I'm looking for something other than a 1911 in .45 (probably the M&P full-size). I carry my Ruger 9mm chambered, hammer down, safety on (usually, though with the 20-lb DA pull I sometimes leave it off). Very safe, but one very quick step from a fire-ready state.

[ScubaSigGuy]

Ah yes, Israeli carry. Intimidating (a miniature version of a shotgun cha-chak) and very safe (even if all safeties fail, the firing pin cannot discharge an empty chamber), but slow and 2-handed.

If you do not trust a gun design enough to carry it with one in the pipe, don't carry it. It's the reason I'm looking for something other than a 1911 in .45 (probably the M&P full-size). I carry my Ruger 9mm chambered, hammer down, safety on (usually, though with the 20-lb DA pull I sometimes leave it off). Very safe, but one very quick step from a fire-ready state.

Just curious... What about a 1911 do you not trust, or feel uncomfortable with?

[The Annoyed Man]

Just curious... What about a 1911 do you not trust, or feel uncomfortable with?

I agree with you, but it did take me a while to get comfortable with the idea of carrying cocked and locked. But when you stop and think about it, the pistol cannot be fired if the trigger isn't being pulled AND the grip safety isn't being depressed AND the thumb safety hasn't been switched off. That's three levels of safety that have to all be deliberately managed for the pistol to fire. And when the pistol is safely lodged in a shaped holster where nothing can get to it to pull it, even if the thumb safety were accidentally switched off and the grip safety depressed, the gun could still not fire. Heck, my H&K USPc has a thumb safety and can be carried either cocked and locked (single action) with the safety on, or decocked (double action) with the safety either on or off. It is a safe pistol, but it lacks the grip safety of a 1911, and even so is no more and no less safe than a 1911.

After that, I relaxed about it.

[FIFTY]

I have had a new employee at a local gun shop recommend that I carry the magazine, OUT of the gun and in my POCKET! He said he did not yet have his CHL, but that this was going to be his method of carry when he did. Amazing. I couldn't believe that this kid expected to carry in a manner that required him to unholster with one hand, retrieve a magazine with the other, then rack the slide before the weapon was operational.

[Liko81]

Just curious... What about a 1911 do you not trust, or feel uncomfortable with?

The design is such that when sitting in the holster it is exceedingly safe. However, consider the following; the grip safety is deactivated when you grip the handle, before you have started to draw it. The thumb safety is specifically designed to be deactivated quickly, even as a consequence of drawing. Therefore, the gun goes from "exceedingly safe" to a very fireable state often before the gun clears the holster. To cap it, many of the nicer 1911s have a trigger pull that is shorter, lighter and crisper than my Buckmark 22 (and that's a crisp, short trigger); only 100% strict, unwaverable adherence to rule 3 (keep your booger hooker off the bang switch) prevents an ND. A DA/SA on the other hand allows carry hammer-down, giving the trigger a much harder pull. My current carry weapon can be pulled out by the trigger and it will not fire. Couple that with a decocking safety that, when on, basically locks the firing pin where it can neither be contacted by the hammer nor move past the block, and hammmer down, safety on is only slightly less safe a carry mode than unchambered, just as fast to ready as a 1911, and only slightly slower, only on the first trigger pull. Slam dunk.

Now, it is impossible to actually pull my gun out of its holster by the trigger; I know drawing by the trigger, if possible, is a flagrant disregard for Rule 3; and I know safeties are no substitute for the four rules. I still prefer a DA trigger to a 3lb, 1/16", "bang switch" in the literal sense, kept locked by a latch that takes no more effort to disengage. Keep in mind I bought my first firearm about 3 months ago, so I'm still getting used to the idea of a deadly weapon on my hip. I also have firsthand experience that a loaded hammer-down TDA is only as safe as the handler, just like any other gun, and if I had a 1911 and wore it around on a daily basis like the guys at the gun shop I'd probably be over my discomfort in short order. It's just me.

[flintknapper]

Just curious... What about a 1911 do you not trust, or feel uncomfortable with?

The design is such that when sitting in the holster it is exceedingly safe. However, consider the following; the grip safety is deactivated when you grip the handle, before you have started to draw it. The thumb safety is specifically designed to be deactivated quickly, even as a consequence of drawing. Therefore, the gun goes from "exceedingly safe" to a very fireable state often before the gun clears the holster. To cap it, many of the nicer 1911s have a trigger pull that is shorter, lighter and crisper than my Buckmark 22 (and that's a crisp, short trigger); only 100% strict, unwaverable adherence to rule 3 (keep your booger hooker off the bang switch) prevents an ND. A DA/SA on the other hand allows carry hammer-down, giving the trigger a much harder pull. My current carry weapon can be pulled out by the trigger and it will not fire. Couple that with a decocking safety that, when on, basically locks the firing pin where it can neither be contacted by the hammer nor move past the block, and hammmer down, safety on is only slightly less safe a carry mode than unchambered, just as fast to ready as a 1911, and only slightly slower, only on the first trigger pull. Slam dunk.

Now, it is impossible to actually pull my gun out of its holster by the trigger; I know drawing by the trigger, if possible, is a flagrant disregard for Rule 3; and I know safeties are no substitute for the four rules. I still prefer a DA trigger to a 3lb, 1/16", "bang switch" in the literal sense, kept locked by a latch that takes no more effort to disengage. Keep in mind I bought my first firearm about 3 months ago, so I'm still getting used to the idea of a deadly weapon on my hip. I also have firsthand experience that a loaded hammer-down TDA is only as safe as the handler, just like any other gun, and if I had a 1911 and wore it around on a daily basis like the guys at the gun shop I'd probably be over my discomfort in short order. It's just me.

There is a third choice if you prefer a 1911 platform.

My daughter chose a Para Carry 9.

It is built (externally) much like any other 1911.

It incorporates a grip safety and a thumb safety, BUT also has a firing pin block, a long double action trigger (very light though), always has the hammer down, and when carried in a retention holster (that uses a strap behind the hammer) adds yet another level of safety...as the hammer can not travel rearward.

Whew....how was that for a "run on" sentence.