Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

WarHawk-AVG
Senior Member
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:05 pm

Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by WarHawk-AVG »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336850,00.html
Imagine you're home alone.

It's 8 p.m. You work an early shift and need to be out the door before sunrise, so you're already in bed. Your nerves are a bit frazzled, because earlier in the week someone broke into your home. Oddly, they didn't take anything; they just rifled through your belongings.

But the violation weighs on your mind. At about the time you drift off, you're awakened by fierce barking from your two large dogs. You hear someone crashing into your front door, as if he's trying to separate it from its hinges. You grab the gun you keep for home defense and leave your room to investigate.

This past January that scenario played out at the Chesapeake, Va., home of 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, a slight man of little more than 100 pounds. According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun.

The intruders were from the Chesapeake Police Department. They had come to serve a drug warrant. Frederick's bullet struck Detective Jarrod Shivers in the side, killing him. Frederick was arrested and has spent the last six weeks in a Chesapeake jail.

He has been charged with first degree murder. Paul Ebert, the special prosecutor assigned to the case, has indicated he may elevate the charge to capital murder, which would enable the state to seek the death penalty.

At the time of the raid, Ryan Frederick worked for a soft drink merchandiser. Current and former employers and co-workers speak highly of him. He also recently had gotten engaged, a welcome lift for a guy who'd had a run of tough luck.

He lost both parents early in life, and friends say the death of his mother hit particularly hard — Frederick discovered her in bed after she had overdosed on prescription medication.

Friends and neighbors describe Frederick as shy, self-effacing, non-confrontational and hard-working. He had no prior criminal record. Frederick and his friends have conceded he smoked marijuana recreationally. But all — including his neighbors — insist there's no evidence he was growing or distributing the drug.

According to the search warrant, the police raided Frederick's home after a confidential informant told them he saw evidence of marijuana growing in a garage behind the home. The warrant says the informant saw several marijuana plants, plus lights, irrigation equipment and other gardening supplies.

After the raid, the police found the gardening supplies, but no plants. They also found a small amount of marijuana, but not much — only enough to charge Frederick with misdemeanor drug possession.

Frederick told a local television station that he was an avid gardener. A neighbor I spoke with backs him up, explaining that Frederick had an elaborate koi pond behind his home and raised a variety of tropical plants. He'd even given his neighbors gardening tips on occasion.

One of the plants Frederick told the local television station he raised was the Japanese maple, a plant that, when green, has leaves that look quite a bit like marijuana leaves.

So far, Chesapeake police have given no indication that they did any investigation to corroborate the tip from their informant. There's no mention in the search warrant of an undercover drug buy from Frederick or of any extensive surveillance of Frederick's home.

More disturbingly, the search warrant says the confidential informant was inside Frederick's house three days before the raid — about the same time Frederick says someone broke into his home. Frederick's supporters have told me that Frederick and his attorney now know the identity of the informant, and that it was the police informant who broke into Frederick's home.

Chesapeake's police department isn't commenting. But if true, all of this raises some very troubling questions about the raid, and about Frederick's continued incarceration.

Chesapeake's lawyer, Paul Ebert, said at a recent bond hearing for Frederick that Shivers, the detective who was killed, was in Frederick's yard when he was shot, and that Frederick fired through his door, knowing he was firing at police.

Frederick's attorney disputes this. Ebert also said Frederick should have known the intruders were police because there were a dozen or more officers at the scene. But some of Frederick's neighbors dispute this, too. One neighbor told me she saw only two officers immediately after the raid; she said the others showed up only after Shivers went down.

What's clear, though, is that Chesepeake police conducted a raid on a man with no prior criminal record. Even if their informant had been correct, Frederick was at worst suspected of growing marijuana plants in his garage. There was no indication he was a violent man — that it was necessary to take down his door after nightfall.

The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Stickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it.

So in the raid where a citizen mistakenly shot a police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the raid where a police officer shot a citizen, prosecutors declined to press charges.

Over the last quarter century, we've seen an astonishing rise in paramilitary police tactics by police departments across America. Peter Kraksa, professor of criminology at the University of Eastern Kentucky, ran a 20-year survey of SWAT team deployments and determined that they have increased 1,500 percent since the early 1980s — mostly to serve nonviolent drug warrants.

This is dangerous, senseless overkill. The margin of error is too thin, and the potential for tragedy too high to use these tactics unless they are in response to an already violent situation (think bank robberies, school shootings or hostage-takings). Breaking down doors to bust drug offenders creates violent situations; it doesn't defuse them.

Shivers' death is only the most recent example. And Ryan Frederick is merely the latest citizen to be put in the impossible position of being awakened from sleep, then having to determine in a matter of seconds if the men breaking into his home are police or criminal intruders.

How many people can honestly say they'd have handled it any differently than he did?

Except this time the guy is being charged with murder..and they are trying to get it upgraded so they can give him the death penalty!!!!!!!!!

Be afraid..be very afraid!!!!!!
A sheepdog says "I will lead the way. I will set the highest standards. ...Your mission is to man the ramparts in this dark and desperate hour with honor and courage." - Lt. Col. Grossman
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmond Burke
dukalmighty
Senior Member
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:45 am

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by dukalmighty »

The really sad thing is that a jury will not hear the whole story,they will move to have certain facts thrown out so as not to "confuse" the jury.I agree that going off an informants tip without any corroborating evidence is ridiculous.If somebody crashed my door unannounced in the middle of the night,I would react the same way,only difference is, I don't use illegal drugs,buy illegal drugs or sale illegal drugs.But that doesn't mean it can't happen,police offices do raid the wrong address sometimes.
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end-to-end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them
silver x0ne
Junior Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Mansfield, TX

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by silver x0ne »

The sad part is, if they can make a jury believe he knew it was the police... he'll go down and probably end up with the death penalty. I hope that everything works out for him.. kinda scary to think it could happen to anyone.
bdickens
Senior Member
Posts: 2807
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:36 am
Location: Houston

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by bdickens »

I'm probably just as pro-police as anybody, but this escalating militarization of our police is truly frightening and it needs to be stopped! No great fan of the ACLU am I, but this would be a good case for them to get involved in.

Why didn't they try knocking on the guy's door first?
Byron Dickens
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by seamusTX »

bdickens wrote:Why didn't they try knocking on the guy's door first?
Maybe they did. He was asleep.

- Jim
KBCraig
Banned
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 3:32 am
Location: Texarkana

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by KBCraig »

I've been following this on Balko's blog and in Reason since it first broke. I'm glad he got it published on Fox, whose audience tends to be more pro-"war on drugs".

It's also been debated hot-and-heavy at the Virginia section of opencarry.org, with a couple of threads locked.

First point of debate: shooting through the door. It's not generally accepted as permissible, but in this case it seems the breach was imminent. A small scared guy is awakened after dark to find his door being knocked down. There's really no time to ask for ID. The maximum charge should be manslaughter, but I would vote to acquit; it was the reasonable reaction of a reasonable man.

A few more issues:
- The alleged grow operation was in the detached garage; why raid the house?
- Dynamic and no-knock raids are ruled justifiable in order to preserve easily destroyed evidence. It's pretty hard to flush a grow op, especially one that is in a different building.
- The return sheet lists a fired .223 case, but Ryan only had a .380 pistol. Did an officer fire a round from an M-16? Was it even Ryan's bullet that killed the officer?
- It was a "knock and announce" warrant, but neighbors who were outside at the time have told reporters they heard no announcement. (This is a working class neighborhood, not a "stop snitching!" drug mall; the Chief of Police lives one street over.)
- Regardless of the facts, the PD is making itself look bad with every conflicting statement they have issued. They couldn't look worse if they tried.

Times have changed. Thirty-six years ago in the same city, an officer was killed after kicking in a door to serve a drug warrant, which was also based on a bogus tip by an informant. Two days later, all charges were dropped, and the dead officer's father (who was also chief of the narcotics division) went to the house to ask the shooter, a 55 year old woman, to accompany him to his son's funeral. She did.

It seems they really didn't learn a lesson from the previous death.
srothstein
Senior Member
Posts: 5343
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by srothstein »

bdickens wrote:I'm probably just as pro-police as anybody, but this escalating militarization of our police is truly frightening and it needs to be stopped! No great fan of the ACLU am I, but this would be a good case for them to get involved in.
I doubt you are as big a supporter of law enforcement as I am :lol:, and I agree that we need to stop the militarization of the police. It is just wrong and makes my job harder as it separates the police from the communities they serve.
Why didn't they try knocking on the guy's door first?
From what I read when this first occurred, they did knock and announce and got no answer. A forced entry is authorized in those cases, and was applied.

In this case, there appear to be two main points of contention between the police and the defendant. First, was there a knock and announce (some witnesses claim there was not). This is a vital point on the service of the warrant and could help contribute to the second point.

The second point is if the defendant knew it was a police officer or not. Part of this debate is how many officers were on scene and where the officer was when he was shot. In the cited article, the officer was part way in the door after kicking in/removing the lower panel. Even if he is in full uniform, this position makes it hard to ID him and, with no announcement, makes a shooting justifiable. The police say he was in the yard with a bunch of other cops around him. This makes it a clear cut murder. And, if the police chief had any concept of public relations, a different department would be handling the investigation to help show impartiality in it.


As a slight topic drift, this is even more an argument to stop the so called war on drugs than it is about the militarization of police. Another good man has been sacrificed to this cause, which can never be won.
Steve Rothstein
Glock 23
Senior Member
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:34 am

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by Glock 23 »

srothstein wrote: As a slight topic drift, this is even more an argument to stop the so called war on drugs than it is about the militarization of police. Another good man has been sacrificed to this cause, which can never be won.
exactly!
Thomas

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by Thomas »

I was doing a bit of searching in the forums and came across this. I never heard of Ryan Frederick before, so I looked to see what eventually happened to him. In 2009 he was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and sentenced 10 years.

This makes my blood boil :mad5

Things that a regular gun-owner can learn from this is:
- Don't do drugs
- Don't shoot blindly (through a door)
philip964
Senior Member
Posts: 18664
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by philip964 »

and we have the dead marine in Tuscon, who was shot by police serving a no knock warrant two months ago. No drugs were found in his house, but he like this police officer is still dead.
User avatar
ELB
Senior Member
Posts: 8125
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by ELB »

Sounds very similar to this story:
http://schantz-law.blogspot.com/2011/09 ... trial.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://schantz-law.blogspot.com/2011/09 ... ument.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Summary:

Cops say a confidential informant told them about a guy selling drugs. Cops scurry, get a warrant, launch a raid same day. Kick in bottom of guy's bedroom door, he shoots back through the opening four times, hitting two officers with one round apiece. (Apparently a .22 since testimony indicates he fired four rounds, and had five remaining in a revolver). Cops shoot back blindly through the door 37 times, with pistols and a .223 caliber weapon, manage to miss the guy, another guy, a woman, and six kids. Guy with the revolver gets charged with 43 violations, eventually boiled down to jury's choice of either Attempted Murder or Manslaughter. The man pled self-defense, said he did not know they were cops, and he only fired to scare away what he thought were burglars.

In this case, the man was acquitted of all charges. In Chicago. Black guy with largely white jury.
'
Basically the cops were very very sloppy. They had some information that someone might be selling drugs and staying at that appartment. Turns out it was the shooter's brother. The shooter (IIRC) had no criminal history, only stayed at the apartment a couple times a week, and had been himself shot 3 times when robbed. This was a rough neighborhood and he had bought a pistol for home defense (at the time this was still a misdemeanor under Chicago law).

The police testified to things that obviously weren't true or could not have happened that way, changed their testimony from earlier statements, contradicted each other's testimony (including about who, if anyone, announced "POLICE!"), didn't follow their own procedures for using a SWAT team, and I think basically lost all credibility with the jury.

The guy spent 28 months in jail awaiting trial. Probably a good thing, since at the time his lawyer took the case, the lawyer had never been to trial.
USAF 1982-2005
____________
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by seamusTX »

Thomas wrote:Don't shoot blindly (through a door)
The man did not shoot through a door. He shot at a police officer (as it turns out) who had already kicked out a panel of the door and was about to enter the house. The homeowner had already been a burglary victim the same week.

I hope that if someone bangs on my door shouting "police," I don't have to check their credentials with DPS and the federal DOJ. At best I would call 911 to verify with the local police. The DEA and other federal three-letter agencies have been known to make raids without notifying a local agency (which they suspect of being corrupt).

This kind of disaster could be prevented upstream by not taking anonymous tips from known criminals, who sometimes are trying to turn the police on people that they just don't like—maybe their ex-brother-in-law or something.

- Jim
Thomas

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by Thomas »

You are correct about the police officer being in some various stage of breaking a part of the door. I generalized it because unless the gun was in the officer's hand which was through the door, I imagine I would not shoot. From what I've read, I don't think he saw the whole person and thus couldn't tell the person was a police officer. He assumed (as I would have), that the person was a bad guy trying to break in. Where I and the victim differ is what how we would have reacted on that assumption.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by seamusTX »

What would you do? I really want to know. This is a very nasty quandary for legal citizens who also do not want to be an "unfortunate victim" of an "unfortunate mistunderstanding."

- Jim
Thomas

Re: Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

Post by Thomas »

Of course hindsight is 20/20, I don't know exactly how I would react with adrenaline pumping and without thinking through the scenario in advance. That said...

The safest thing (but not me) - leave the house through the back, when encountering police, drop the gun and high-five the sky. If no police, get to safe spot and call 911.

What I would do - crouch around a corner and wait to see the whole suspect (whether after opening door with arm through the door, or after suspect completely goes through door), when seeing he/she looks like a police officer, yell, "Identify yourself, don't move." If supposed police officer aims gun at me or goes for gun, recoil back and run to back yard. If the person was not in uniform, shoot.

If it got to the point where I shot an un-uniformed police officer and I was convicted, I would feel worse for America than I would for myself.
Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”