informing, concealing questions

[mr.72]

OK.

So, according to 411.205, if I am carrying and I get stopped by a police officer who asks or my ID, then I have to supply my CHL. However I don't see anywhere in the code that says I have to inform a peace officer that I am carrying. So is it the law, or just courtesy to inform the officer of they ask "are you carrying right now"?

Also, let's say I am carrying at church, and someone in authority (pastor, security personnel, etc.) asks me directly if I am carrying. Am I compelled to disclose that I am carrying?

Last minutia question for today... If I am carrying concealed on private property, do I have to conceal at all times? For example, let's say I am in a controlled environment and everyone in this environment knows I am carrying. Is it an offense for me to "intentionally fail to conceal" under these circumstances? Like for example, maybe I am at my parents' house, and my dad asks to see my carry weapon. Or maybe I am at church in the green room, and I need to change my shirt. I know it's kind of far fetched but I am just trying to understand the law.

[txflyer]

Also, let's say I am carrying at church, and someone in authority (pastor, security personnel, etc.) asks me directly if I am carrying. Am I compelled to disclose that I am carrying?

IANAL, but the way I read the laws: You are under no obligation to answer a non-LEOs questions about whether you are carrying or not. If it were me, I would simply say "I prefer not to answer that question." If they feel to call the police at that point without my knowledge I would explain to the officer my side of the story and offer to leave if the owner is requesting that I do leave.

If they said to me, "If you're carrying, please leave" and I'm not carrying I would stay or leave depending on their attitude. If I were carrying, obviously I would have to leave if it's private property. I have received notice under 30.06 at that point.

[bdickens]

As with so many things, discretion is the wisest course of action.

[Excaliber]

As with so many things, discretion is the wisest course of action.

If you behave discreetly, the question rarely comes up unless you engage in conversation on the subject. Even then, most folks won't ask. If they do, I respond that they're asking for very personal information that's comparable to inquiring about one's bedroom activities. I politely tell them that I don't answer questions like that as a matter of personal policy, and I ask them to respect my privacy in that regard. I haven't ever had anyone press further at that point.

[smyrna]

OK.

So, according to 411.205, if I am carrying and I get stopped by a police officer who asks or my ID, then I have to supply my CHL. However I don't see anywhere in the code that says I have to inform a peace officer that I am carrying. So is it the law, or just courtesy to inform the officer of they ask "are you carrying right now"?

According to the revised law, you are REQUIRED to provide your CHL when asked for ID by a peace officer IF you are carrying. You are under no obligation to provide the CHL if you ARE NOT carrying at the moment the officer asks for ID. So, assuming the officer understands the requirements of the law, he or she would assume that someone is armed if presenting a CHL. However, I think the consesus by many CHL holders is to ALWAYS present your CHL whether armed or not. That's what I always do and the next question out of the officer's mouth is, "Mr. So and So, are you carrying your weapon on your person at this moment?" or something to that effect. And, I think most would agree that it is in your best interests to answer his or her questions honestly.

Also, let's say I am carrying at church, and someone in authority (pastor, security personnel, etc.) asks me directly if I am carrying. Am I compelled to disclose that I am carrying?

"Someone in authority (pastor, security personnel, etc.)" are not peace officers (with the exception of some security personnel I guess) and you are under no obligation to disclose your status no more than if a stranger on the street asks you. With that said, if this happens with regularity, you need to examine your carry method(s). I too was paranoid when I first started carrying and thought everyone could "see it" when actually they were none the wiser. IMO, in social settings such as church, you are more likely to be made by a "hugger" or "toucher" than by a visual identification.

Last minutia question for today... If I am carrying concealed on private property, do I have to conceal at all times? For example, let's say I am in a controlled environment and everyone in this environment knows I am carrying. Is it an offense for me to "intentionally fail to conceal" under these circumstances? Like for example, maybe I am at my parents' house, and my dad asks to see my carry weapon. Or maybe I am at church in the green room, and I need to change my shirt. I know it's kind of far fetched but I am just trying to understand the law.

Wow! This one is a little too wide open to answer conclusively...I say let your conscious be your guide. It really depends on the reaction of who is around. If I'm on private property, for example my in-law's or parent's who are CHL friendly by the way, I don't sweat it. Other than that, VERY FEW people know I carry, and whether I am on private property or not, I'd like to keep it that way. IMO, outside of your closest circle, you are setting yourself up for trouble by putting yourself in a situation such as church that would make known your carry status. Maybe you wouldn't be in trouble with the law although concelaed means concealed, but all it takes is one blabbermouth and the whole county would know you carry. Then some bozo in Wal Mart calls you out and it all goes downhill from there...Nope. I wouldn't borrow the trouble.

[srothstein]

There is a problem with the first question about a peace officer. You are required to give him your CHL if you are carrying and he asks. You have no legal requirement to answer any questions of the officer other than your name, date of birth, and address when you are under arrest. As a general rule, it is illegal to lie to an officer but you do not have to answer. But, the problem is that he has the legal authority to disarm you under certain circumstances. This implies that he has the right to know when you are carrying and you would have to answer. It is not a clear situation, but I recommend answering that question accurately to avoid problems in the street.

You never have to answer or show your CHL to anyone not a peace officer. I agree that the best answer is that you don't care to answer that question. There is one tricky part to this and that is the criminal trespass warning. Under 30.05 they can not bar a CHL for carrying on their property (well, ti is a defense to prosecution anyway). For this to work, they would have to know you are a CHL. Of course, if it gets that far, there will be a peace officer there anyway, so this may not be a problem.

The third part of your questions is actually the easiest. The law says that you commit an offense if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL and intentionally fail to conceal. It makes no difference where you are except for in your own home, a business under your control, or your car (where it has to be concealed but under a different law). So, if you are in church and take your jacket off, yes you have committed an offense. If you are at your father's house and take the weapon out, you have committed an offense. The technical answer is you have committed the crime but the real question is if you will get arrested for it. If you are in your dad's house and he asks to see the weapon, there is no complainant to call the police and therefore no real problem. In church, is a little different, but if you were in a men's group (for example) and the topic came up and the whole group was talking about things or doing a shooting activity, then again there is no complainant and no problem. If you wer ein a group where it was not a topic, say a finance meeting, then there is a good chance someone would be offended enough and call the police. I would hope a church group would talk to you first, but some people do panic at the mere though of someone carrying in their neighborhood, let alone see it in the same room.

[mr.72]

Getting 'made' at church would be either a huggy kind of thing, or while gearing up to play since I have to do things like run cables down my shirt and put on wireless receivers and that kind of thing which may cause an unintentional 'flash'.

As for the pastor or security guys asking me about it, well I think the pastor may ask because he thinks it's cool. Some of the security guys went to the CHL class with me.

Thanks srothstein for the very detailed and informative answer.

[Afff_667]

The third part of your questions is actually the easiest. The law says that you commit an offense if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL and intentionally fail to conceal. It makes no difference where you are except for in your own home, a business under your control, or your car (where it has to be concealed but under a different law).

If you are at your father's house and take the weapon out, you have committed an offense. The technical answer is you have committed the crime but the real question is if you will get arrested for it.

Please help me understand the above information....I drive to my Dad's ranch while carrying concealed and making the usual pit stops for gas, etc. I am wearing jeans, t-shirt, and another button-type western shirt untucked to conceal the pistola residing comfortably IWB. I arrive at my dad's house and am immediately put to work somewhere doing something and remove the button-type western shirt. Dad has no problem with guns, is a CHL holder himself, and there's absolutely no issue with me carrying on his land, at his barn, riding his tractor on his land, in his home, etc.

Unless I am missing something in srothstein's answer, then complaint or no complaint, I am breaking the law. I would appreciate some clarification here, because I almost always have a pistol in plain view when I am working on his land (or at my cousin's place). Having a CHL, it sounds like I will always be "intentionally" failing to conceal in those situations. What am I missing? And, if I am not missing something, there is a problem with the law....

[Keith B]

The third part of your questions is actually the easiest. The law says that you commit an offense if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL and intentionally fail to conceal. It makes no difference where you are except for in your own home, a business under your control, or your car (where it has to be concealed but under a different law).

If you are at your father's house and take the weapon out, you have committed an offense. The technical answer is you have committed the crime but the real question is if you will get arrested for it.

Please help me understand the above information....I drive to my Dad's ranch while carrying concealed and making the usual pit stops for gas, etc. I am wearing jeans, t-shirt, and another button-type western shirt untucked to conceal the pistola residing comfortably IWB. I arrive at my dad's house and am immediately put to work somewhere doing something and remove the button-type western shirt. Dad has no problem with guns, is a CHL holder himself, and there's absolutely no issue with me carrying on his land, at his barn, riding his tractor on his land, in his home, etc.

Unless I am missing something in srothstein's answer, then complaint or no complaint, I am breaking the law. I would appreciate some clarification here, because I almost always have a pistol in plain view when I am working on his land (or at my cousin's place). Having a CHL, it sounds like I will always be "intentionally" failing to conceal in those situations. What am I missing? And, if I am not missing something, there is a problem with the law....

As the law is written, unless it is your property or property you are in control of, then yes, you are breaking the law. Does it need changing to allow open carry on private property by permission of the owner? Maybe, but it is the law as it stands today.

[mr.72]

That's what I thought, too. Seems the law doesn't allow for open carry, flashing or other "intentional failure to conceal" anywhere except your own property or property you control.

I kind of wondered about this for your car as well. You have to carry concealed in the car. However sometimes maybe you have to disarm in the car in order to go into a 30.06 place or school. How do you keep the gun concealed while you are removing it from your belt and putting it in a safe or other container? Seems impossible.

Along the lines of open carrying on your own property, are we saying that I can open-carry in my front yard, in my driveway, or otherwise on my property, while in plain view of the street and my neighbors' houses etc.? I live in a typical suburban "master planned community" with big houses on small lots. So I can OC out my front door, but once I get into my own car, I have to conceal? Weird. And I can OC in full view of my neighbors and impressionable young children while walking around my front yard but not inside my parents' house or the green room at church.

BTW about the unintentional flash at church, does it make a difference if I am an employee of the church?

The Texas CHL laws, as written right now, have many impractical and nonsensical details. It seems the "spirit of the law" is to limit exposure of ones' handgun while in uncontrolled places or in public view, while the "letter of the law" is impractical and doesn't make much sense. As CHL holders we like to side with the "spirit of the law" when it suits us, such as cases of failure to conceal in controlled environments, and the "letter of the law" when it suits us such as improperly worded 30.06 signs. IMHO it would be better for the "letter of the law" to make more sense so we could know where the lines are.

Does anyone have any reference to CHL holders' arrest or conviction statistics for things like this, violation of minor CHL laws? Makes me wonder if ever people really get prosecuted for an unintentional flash in a restaurant or that kind of thing.

[bdickens]

Yes. Legally, you can OC on your property all you want. But it might not be prudent for you to do so, as it will most assuredly attract unwelcome attention.

[Afff_667]

Thanks for the info and clarification....I guess, then, that I violate that section of the CHL statutes every time I OC a pistol while hunting, as well. All things considered, that's simply ridiculous.

Interesting that the net effect of my CHL is to turn me into something of a criminal....

[mr.72]

You'd be just as much of a "criminal" without the CHL.

CHL makes it legal for you to carry concealed, under the circumstances outlined in the law. However, it does not make it illegal to do anything that would have otherwise been legal.

[KBCraig]

That's what I thought, too. Seems the law doesn't allow for open carry, flashing or other "intentional failure to conceal" anywhere except your own property or property you control.

I kind of wondered about this for your car as well. You have to carry concealed in the car.

"Gentlemen, this is a football!"

Always go back to the basics: in Texas, it is illegal (per PC 46.02) to have a handgun on or about your person. Period. Full stop.

Now that we've got the basics down, we can proceed to the listed exceptions to that law. Only two of the exceptions require the handgun to be concealed: carrying a concealed handgun while in possession of a valid CHL; and, carrying a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle you own or control.

None of the other exceptions to 46.02 require concealment. On your own property (or property you control), traveling (which is still undefined by statute), engaged in a sporting activity commonly requiring use of a handgun, being a Peace Officer or on-duty licensed security guard (as defined by statute), etc.

Violation of the CHL exception requires that one "intentionally fail to conceal"; this is a "brandishing" law by legislative intent, if not by wording. It was designed to make sure that CHLs wouldn't sweep back their Old West dusters to reveal that six-shooter hanging low, as an implied threat. Accidental exposure doesn't count.

[smyrna]

The third part of your questions is actually the easiest. The law says that you commit an offense if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL and intentionally fail to conceal. It makes no difference where you are except for in your own home, a business under your control, or your car (where it has to be concealed but under a different law).

If you are at your father's house and take the weapon out, you have committed an offense. The technical answer is you have committed the crime but the real question is if you will get arrested for it.

Please help me understand the above information....I drive to my Dad's ranch while carrying concealed and making the usual pit stops for gas, etc. I am wearing jeans, t-shirt, and another button-type western shirt untucked to conceal the pistola residing comfortably IWB. I arrive at my dad's house and am immediately put to work somewhere doing something and remove the button-type western shirt. Dad has no problem with guns, is a CHL holder himself, and there's absolutely no issue with me carrying on his land, at his barn, riding his tractor on his land, in his home, etc.

Unless I am missing something in srothstein's answer, then complaint or no complaint, I am breaking the law. I would appreciate some clarification here, because I almost always have a pistol in plain view when I am working on his land (or at my cousin's place). Having a CHL, it sounds like I will always be "intentionally" failing to conceal in those situations. What am I missing? And, if I am not missing something, there is a problem with the law....

Hey, I'm with you on this one Afff_667...
While I agree that technically you are breaking the law...a common sense approach is in order for the third question posed by the original poster because you can't possibly fulfill every requirement of every law in every situation. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense either. With that said, I am certainly not advocating not trying to fulfill the law, just merely agknowledging that some grey areas exist.