Back Up Gun vs Tactical Blade

[Excaliber]

A listerine bottle? There's a sure story there...

There is, but it wasn't pretty. The other weapon used in the same incident was a bathroom scale.

When I was a kid, Listerine came in glass bottles. I would expect a broken Listerine bottle would be every bit as ugly as a broken beer bottle.

This incident was back in the glass bottle days.

[mojo84]

I do not view my knife as a self defense weapon. However, I would use it for some up close personal social work if absolutely necessary.

[WildBill]

A listerine bottle? There's a sure story there...

There is, but it wasn't pretty. The other weapon used in the same incident was a bathroom scale.

When I was a kid, Listerine came in glass bottles. I would expect a broken Listerine bottle would be every bit as ugly as a broken beer bottle.

This incident was back in the glass bottle days.

... and before ceramic squirrels became the preferred weapon of choice.

[HerbM]

I would never deem to argue with the man who feels two firearms to be preferred.

However, my practice is: one firearm, 2 knives, 2 extra mags, and 1 pepper spray.

The knife and pepper spray give me some options the firearm does not provide. You can't use a gun to cut yourself out of a seat belt after a car crash nor to open (most) boxes and letters.

You can't effectively threaten a vicious or aggressive dog with knife or firearm, and I really don't want to harm someone's dog just because he is bad mannered and got out of his yard -- pepper spray supplies another option.

Carrying a second firearm for me, comes in down below carrying two extra mags. My firearm WORKS (or it gets replace/repaired), and I am more likely to need the ammo than a 2nd firearm.

The knife works for self-defense, the knife can be taken more places, and it is more ubiquitously available in the environment (e.g., kitchen, shop, your pocket) than pretty much any other tool or weapon.

(I too have a policy to avoid places with 30.06 signs, including the darn gun shows) but there are some place I can't avoid: Hospitals, the Austin Data Center (State of Texas so go figure, and court (for jury duty.) At Court they are going to make me leave my knife usually, but most places with a 30.06 will allow the knife.)

Learning to USE a knife for defense is NOT very hard -- I practive this and teach actively teach it. Eric mentioned we practice in Austin, plus there are similar groups to ours across Texas, other states and even internationally -- we are not-for-profit so cheap (gym fee we pay is small) and if you want to come try it then please let me know as it is always free the first couple of times.

However, like anything, using a knife without SOME training is not generally as effective as when you have that training.

As Eric said, a BIG PART of knife defense is ACCESSING UNDER PRESSURE -- if you NEED it you will like need it about 3 seconds ago so be trying to stay alive while under attack AND deploying the knife.

This is big key for those (here) who carry a firearm, with or without a knife or other tool: When you NEED your FIREARM you likely will ALREADY BE UNDER CLOSE ATTACK.

Criminals don't stand across the street and say, "Hey dude, wait right there I have a knife and I am going to come over and rob you."

They find SNEAKY ways to GET CLOSE. The first time you SEE the knife it will likely be against your body -- or already have injured you and maybe be coming in again, fast and hard. (Knife defense is also NOT MUCH LIKE what you see on TV nor what most people practice in the typical McDojo Martial Arts.)

We have learned through FORCE ON FORCE training that to REACH for you firearm while under close attack by a criminal wielding a knife means taking one hand out of the fight and likely you will be seriously injured or killed well before the firearm offers any assistance. (And it does YOU little good to shoot the attacker if you go to the morgue or in for a liver transplant.)

Before you have a firearm problem, you typically have a "Combatives Problem" (and yes, before that you have an AWARENESS and MIND SET issue.)

The best GENERAL strategy has been shown to be: DEAL with the knife (or other serious) attack FIRST, gain time and space (e.g., push off), and THEN DRAW YOUR FIREARM.

You really need TIME AND SPACE to deploy a firearm effectively in most close attack situations.

We have all heard (or practiced) the 21' Tueller Drill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill but that is a LONG WAY compared to most knife attacks. Inside your home it is unlikely you will even SEE an intruder at further than 10-12 feet, and outside the home the criminal will likely be within arm's reach before you KNOW his bad intentions (you may suspect and that is good, but few criminals will make it obvious before reaching contact or near contact range.)

We only know ONE WAY to get good at this: Practice.

And PRACTICE against full speed, fully resistant partners SOME of the time. It' s amazing how many martial arts techniques go to pieces at full speed (even by life long martial artists.)

And sure, someone will say, "Aw, I'll just shoot him." But time and time again we have put on the AirSoft mask and loaded up the Airsoft pistols and then watch the "guy with a gun" get sliced to ribbons. And realize, that is when HE KNEW someone would attack.

Please don't read me wrong -- this is NOT the gun controller's fantasy that "guns don't work" - they do. FIREARMS are the MOST effective SINGLE way to defend yourself.

However, knowing how to deploy them UNDER PRESSURE, that is UNDER CLOSE ATTACK, will make you far safer than merely having the firearm.

I am pretty passionate about this issue, and that is the very reason that I formed a group (in Austin) to PRACTICE.

We would love to have any of you join us.

And yes, we scale the force for YOUR readiness and robustness. For those not prepared to go full speed we find the level that is JUST CHALLENGING and build skills. Eventually our goals is for those who continue to practice to reach FULL OUT, but any improvement will increase your odds of staying alive.

Our practice has ONE CLEAR PRIMARY GOAL: "Go Home Safe!"

--
HerbM

Keep fighting -- God will tell you when you are dead.

[WildBill]

I would never deem to argue with the man who feels two firearms to be preferred...
HerbM
Keep fighting -- God will tell you when you are dead.

Very thoughtful post HerbM. Thank you.

[Deltaboy]

I have a cane, flashlight, and 2-3 pieces of cold steel + the gun and ammo.

[ammoboy2]

Benchmade and Glock combination.

If you have any knife training interest an upcoming event on the 25th, see the link.

http://www.combativestraininggroup.com/ ... n-25-2014/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HerbM]

Benchmade and Glock combination.

If you have any knife training interest an upcoming event on the 25th, see the link.

http://www.combativestraininggroup.com/ ... n-25-2014/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am active on CombativesTrainingGroup.com and the organizer of that training, Steve Miles, offers excellent training with knife, gun, and empty hand work.

You are also all welcome to visit us in Austin for regular practice (free the first couple of time and nominal gym fee after that) if you wish to learn more about how to deal with the initial attack and "ACCESS".

We refer to "ACCESSING" to indicate dealing with the initial attack and then accessing our firearm or other defense tools, as well as RUNNING or moving to take any other action.

I am very passionate about "oppotional testing" which indicates that self-defense with a firearm has a large component of physical combatives if it is to be MOST EFFECTIVE.

--
Keep Fighting -- God will tell you when you are dead.

[RKlenka]

For the poll:



Hey now Herb and ELB don't forget about us up here in Fort Worth, we meet up twice a week as well. :P

I am not a SEAL nor have I any combat training for fighting with a knife.

Its great for everyday use, I guess I could use it for self defense.

3. I don't see a need for a "tacticool" blade or a second pistol. Thats what the attack wiener dogs are for.

but I would feel a lot more like it was a defense weapon if I had ever found where to get training in knife fighting

I am not a SEAL either and don't have formal training in knife fighting, but that doesn't mean I can't fight with a knife if I had too.

I think i see a pattern...
From my view, this is the same as if you where here saying you don't carry your firearm because you don't know how to use it, or you only carry a pocket pistol for coyotes but you guess you could use it in self defense or you don't want to be seen with your 'tacticool' glocks. You guys carry knives and dont know how to use them? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I would feel a lot more like it was a defense weapon if I had ever found where to get training in knife fighting. Every time I have asked about it, the reaction is either nothing or it's like if your grandmother didn't teach you, you never learn it. I'd hate to have to serve a stretch in the pen to learn it.

Not pointing at you directly but what did you guys do when you starting thinking about firearms for self defense? Asked around a bit and then go 'Oh well..'? Looks like at least someone came up with the idea of a forum to discuss these types of topics since here we are.

Knife fighting has been around since humanity learned how to poke each other with small pointed objects. There are groups through out Texas, the US and through out the world, new groups almost daily who are meeting together to learn and train that the 'pointy end goes this way' and 'knife goes in guts come out'. And im not just talking about people in traditional karate pajamas, but normal people, even Walruses, in jeans with a dull aluminum trainer.

As Herb said, its not that hard. We even have a forum dedicated to it: http://www.combativestraininggroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But back to the poll: CCW, Two Knives, and flashlight at least, all day everyday.

[Excaliber]

For the poll:

[ Image ]

Hey now Herb and ELB don't forget about us up here in Fort Worth, we meet up twice a week as well. :P

I am not a SEAL nor have I any combat training for fighting with a knife.

Its great for everyday use, I guess I could use it for self defense.

3. I don't see a need for a "tacticool" blade or a second pistol. Thats what the attack wiener dogs are for.

but I would feel a lot more like it was a defense weapon if I had ever found where to get training in knife fighting

I am not a SEAL either and don't have formal training in knife fighting, but that doesn't mean I can't fight with a knife if I had too.

I think i see a pattern...
From my view, this is the same as if you where here saying you don't carry your firearm because you don't know how to use it, or you only carry a pocket pistol for coyotes but you guess you could use it in self defense or you don't want to be seen with your 'tacticool' glocks. You guys carry knives and dont know how to use them? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I would feel a lot more like it was a defense weapon if I had ever found where to get training in knife fighting. Every time I have asked about it, the reaction is either nothing or it's like if your grandmother didn't teach you, you never learn it. I'd hate to have to serve a stretch in the pen to learn it.

Not pointing at you directly but what did you guys do when you starting thinking about firearms for self defense? Asked around a bit and then go 'Oh well..'? Looks like at least someone came up with the idea of a forum to discuss these types of topics since here we are.

Knife fighting has been around since humanity learned how to poke each other with small pointed objects. There are groups through out Texas, the US and through out the world, new groups almost daily who are meeting together to learn and train that the 'pointy end goes this way' and 'knife goes in guts come out'. And im not just talking about people in traditional karate pajamas, but normal people, even Walruses, in jeans with a dull aluminum trainer.

As Herb said, its not that hard. We even have a forum dedicated to it: http://www.combativestraininggroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But back to the poll: CCW, Two Knives, and flashlight at least, all day everyday.

I think the reason many folks haven't trained for fighting with the knife they carry is because the knife is carried primarily as a utility tool. The firearm is their deadly force defense tool, and they focus what training they do (which is often not very much) on it.

Most are aware that, in a worst case scenario, the knife may be used as a weapon like anything else in the environment - a trash can, a rock, etc., and they could use any of those more effectively with training, but most don't train with those either.

It's not an ideal situation, and it's always good to pause occasionally and take a look at what we do and why we do it, so I appreciate your efforts to raise awareness here.

[RKlenka]

I think the reason many folks haven't trained for fighting with the knife they carry is because the knife is carried primarily as a utility tool.

These posts show that a knife is viewed primarily as a utility tool, this is very handy because there are a a lot fewer places where having a knife on you is frowned upon. Which one could think that this would increase its importance in learning how to use it defensively. But then again this could lead into the whole: is a firearm a utility tool, or just made for killing (if so then mine must be defective har har).

Most are aware that, in a worst case scenario, the knife may be used as a weapon like anything else in the environment - a trash can, a rock, etc., and they could use any of those more effectively with training, but most don't train with those either.

It's not an ideal situation, and it's always good to pause occasionally and take a look at what we do and why we do it, so I appreciate your efforts to raise awareness here.

Very true.

Maybe someone should come up with public knife ranges :P

[Excaliber]

I think the reason many folks haven't trained for fighting with the knife they carry is because the knife is carried primarily as a utility tool.

These posts show that a knife is viewed primarily as a utility tool, this is very handy because there are a a lot fewer places where having a knife on you is frowned upon. Which one could think that this would increase its importance in learning how to use it defensively. But then again this could lead into the whole: is a firearm a utility tool, or just made for killing (if so then mine must be defective har har).

Most are aware that, in a worst case scenario, the knife may be used as a weapon like anything else in the environment - a trash can, a rock, etc., and they could use any of those more effectively with training, but most don't train with those either.

It's not an ideal situation, and it's always good to pause occasionally and take a look at what we do and why we do it, so I appreciate your efforts to raise awareness here.

Very true.

Maybe someone should come up with public knife ranges :P

Well, I suppose you could use your firearm to open packages or cut string, but it would likely be frowned upon.

As far as knife ranges go, it would seem that HerbM and RKlenka have done almost exactly that.

[ELB]

For the poll:

[ Image ]

Hey now Herb and ELB don't forget about us up here in Fort Worth, we meet up twice a week as well. :P

...

D'oh! Yes indeed.

...
As far as knife ranges go, it would seem that HerbM and RKlenka have done almost exactly that.

They have indeed. HerbM has scheduled practices on Sat mornings, Monday and Wednesday nights; he will also meet for training just about anytime he is not at work. He's a fanatic about training.

I don't remember Robert's schedule cuz unfortunately I am pretty far from Ft Worth, but I am sure you can PM him for times or go thru the CTCTG website. And pretty much all our training groups have been started by a couple or more guys just agreeing "let's get together and work on stuff" and picking a place to start. The CTCTG group originally met in one of the public outdoor parks in Austin. Theys said the got some odd looks by passersby, but they perservered, learned stuff, and had fun doing it. The main thing is to actually get out and practice.

I think anyone can figure out pretty quickly how to use a knife in defense once you get one in your hand. Training with more experienced people can certainly give you an edge (heh!) and make you more efficient, but slashing and stabbing seems to be pretty ingrained in humans (hence Listerine bottles, screwdrivers, sharp sticks, etc.)

What does seem to take some training is a) remembering you have a knife, and b) getting it out where you can use it at the appropriate time. Just sticking in your pocket or on your belt, boot, etc, is unlikely to be enough to remember to use it "in the moment." As law-abiding citizens our violent interactions are nearly always going to be reactive, and we have to deal with the incoming attack and get to our [gun, knife, escape route...] without getting killed in the process. Both these requires some practice.


Back to the poll: Option 3 is still overwhelming the two "background check" choices at 75%.

[Abraham]

HerbM,

"(I too have a policy to avoid places with 30.06 signs, including the darn gun shows) but there are some place I can't avoid: Hospitals,"

Would you please elaborate on the Hospitals - I'm not certain what you're saying.

Thanks!

[HerbM]

HerbM,

"(I too have a policy to avoid places with 30.06 signs, including the darn gun shows) but there are some place I can't avoid: Hospitals,"

Would you please elaborate on the Hospitals - I'm not certain what you're saying.

Thanks!

Most hospitals have 30.06 signs, and there are instances where it just doesn't work for me to avoid the hospital. Some of my doctors are inside the boundaries of those signs.

I will actually enter the gun show on RARE occasions if there is not practical alternative. (Sometimes I am asked by beginners to help them find a firearm and this is the most practical way to let them see what is available.)

Before the gun show posted the 30.06 signs I went most months.