Haven Police Ditch Glocks After Two Explode

[ghostrider]

>I didn't see anything on the Redding site about this being a Glock specific problem.

you're right. There isn't. But, I believe its either a more common issue with Glocks, OR it may be that there are more Glocks in .40 out their that get used a lot or have reloads put through them. One article I read on this new resizing die surmised that the name "G-Rx" stood for "Glock prescription" :-)

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/lofivers ... 16085.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.gundigest.com/article/shooti ... lockbulge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its not a .40 specific problem either. I've had 9mm range brass that wouldn't fit a case gauge after resizing because of the case head being slightly too large. EGW sells undersize reloading dies to handle this problem in 9mm, 40, and 45:
http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[boomerang]

I thought most manufacturers say it violates the warranty to shoot reloads.

[mr surveyor]

I am certainly not qualified to have much more than an opinion based on a few years of reading and discussion, but I too would suspect an ammunition problem... especially if it was in fact department reloads involved. It's my understanding that the .45GAP compared to .45ACP is very similar to the .40 cal compared to the 10mm round. The .40 cal being a good bit shorter than the 10mm is packed to the limit to begin with, thus being on the very edge of maximum pressure (no .40 cal legitimately rated "+P as it's already at the top of SAAMI specs). The way I understood the claims when the .45GAP round was developed, it was very similar to the .40/10mm comparison in that it was packed to the limit. I would guess that overloading the .45GAP to beyond safe pressures could be a possibility.

I'm not a Glock fan, but I certainly believe they are very well designed and manufactured to quality specs. How many millions of Glock firearms in circulation?

surv

[ghostrider]

It looks like the .45GAP is still a low pressure (23000psi) cartridge though, so I'm not sure if its in the same category as 40/10mm:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/45gap.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mr surveyor]

pressure wise I don't think it's even near the .40/10mm level. I was thinking that the round itself could be overcharged enough in the shortened casing to cause an over pressurization of the casing itself, possibly due to design. I pretty sure there's not a whole lot of leeway in loading .40's before reaching unsafe conditions in the shortened casing.

Again, just guessing.

[The Annoyed Man]

>I didn't see anything on the Redding site about this being a Glock specific problem.

you're right. There isn't. But, I believe its either a more common issue with Glocks, OR it may be that there are more Glocks in .40 out their that get used a lot or have reloads put through them. One article I read on this new resizing die surmised that the name "G-Rx" stood for "Glock prescription" :-)

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/lofivers ... 16085.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.gundigest.com/article/shooti ... lockbulge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its not a .40 specific problem either. I've had 9mm range brass that wouldn't fit a case gauge after resizing because of the case head being slightly too large. EGW sells undersize reloading dies to handle this problem in 9mm, 40, and 45:
http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We should get an opinion from Crossfire's husband. If I recall correctly, he is a certified Glock armorer. He might know a thing or two about this.

[Catfight]

Theres also the possibility that the PD bought reloaded ammo or reloaded their own and had some excessive pressures be the problem. To me, its obvious that its an ammo issue since thats the only thing in the gun that has the ability to go boom. As for unsupported chambers, I cant see this being an issue that would cause this problem. When a bullet is fired, the gases expand and will leave through the easiest route possible which would most likely be right behind the bullet itself unless the cases were bad or overpressured during loading. Ive had my Glock 22 since 1990 and Ive fired thousands of rounds through it and I managed to blow it up with reloaded ammo. The Glock people fixed it right up and its still on my hip years later.

[ghostrider]

More info (or at least discussion) here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.p ... opic=55538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Excaliber]

Please forgive my ignorance. What is an unsupported chamber?

I had read about these kabooms a year or two ago and thought they boiled down to bad reloads.

"Unsupported chamber" refers to a cutout in the lower portion of the chamber in the rear by the feed ramp in order to facilitate feed reliability. When a cartridge is inserted, the casing is not supported by steel in this area. This situation, usually combined with lead bullets, reloaded ammunition, or poor-quality factory ammunition, can cause the cartridge case to fail at this point when the cartridge is fired. The subsequent rapid pressure rise from the burning powder gases causes the cartridge casing to expand beyond normal specifications near the feed ramp at which time the casing ruptures, sometimes damaging the polymer frame and usually ejecting the magazine downwards out of the pistol grip.

This issue has been reported many times with .40S&W caliber Glocks. The high operating pressure of this cartridge may provide a slimmer margin of safety. From the article in this thread, it appears it may be an issue with some other calibers as well. The article doesn't mention whether the ammo in use at the time was new commercial manufacture or reloads. Without that information, it's not possible to feel confident faulting the gun or the manufacturer.

[C-dub]

Interesting. Thanks Excaliber.

I still have several thousand rounds through both of my glocks without a problem. on wood!

[tarkus]

I like Sigs but I would rather carry a Glock than drive a Ford.

[CDH]

Jeez, this issue is still being batted around in 2009? I figured all the Glock bashers had died from old age by now...

Seriously...this is topic that irritates me personally and I have researched it fairly extensively.

The vast majority of catastrophic failures are ammo related. Period. Some gun designs handle it better than others, sometimes a gun maker had a bad batch of product (see Tikka barrels a few years back), and you can argue all day about which design is better than the other...BUT Glock is far from alone in having unsupported chambers. They weren't even the first to do so...by far! They are far from the only ones having slides split and such from a catastrophic failure. They just seem to be the hotbutton pistol for a lot of people...and they are really really common in PD inventories.

Now, I have seen a lot of bad reloads, even commercial ones, cause problems. For example, my only personal serious ammo related problem was a pair (out of the first 9 rounds from a box) of complete case head separations in a 40S&W through a Glock 22...and they were from some fly by night local commercial reloader using a roll former to size (and excessively work harden...bad bad bad...never use roll sized brass!!!) range brass from his own range. Gee, sell your own reloads on your own range...I wonder how many times that brass had been through the process!?!? The main customer of that range? Our local PD. My Glock? Completely unharmed. Except for the jam, I never knew it happened. Yup...blew the head off, leaving the case in the chamber, and nothing felt by my hand... I reload my own now...

I've seen several similar bad ammo scenarios, and read authoritative writeups of many more. I personally take ALL internet writeups of exploding guns with a big grain of salt unless I have intimate knowledge of the scenario and I highly recommend the same to y'all.

I'm off my soap box now...with asbestos underoos on...fire away!

[Excaliber]

Jeez, this issue is still being batted around in 2009? I figured all the Glock bashers had died from old age by now...

Seriously...this is topic that irritates me personally and I have researched it fairly extensively.

The vast majority of catastrophic failures are ammo related. Period. Some gun designs handle it better than others, sometimes a gun maker had a bad batch of product (see Tikka barrels a few years back), and you can argue all day about which design is better than the other...BUT Glock is far from alone in having unsupported chambers. They weren't even the first to do so...by far! They are far from the only ones having slides split and such from a catastrophic failure. They just seem to be the hotbutton pistol for a lot of people...and they are really really common in PD inventories.

Now, I have seen a lot of bad reloads, even commercial ones, cause problems. For example, my only personal serious ammo related problem was a pair (out of the first 9 rounds from a box) of complete case head separations in a 40S&W through a Glock 22...and they were from some fly by night local commercial reloader using a roll former to size (and excessively work harden...bad bad bad...never use roll sized brass!!!) range brass from his own range. Gee, sell your own reloads on your own range...I wonder how many times that brass had been through the process!?!? The main customer of that range? Our local PD. My Glock? Completely unharmed. Except for the jam, I never knew it happened. Yup...blew the head off, leaving the case in the chamber, and nothing felt by my hand... I reload my own now...

I've seen several similar bad ammo scenarios, and read authoritative writeups of many more. I personally take ALL internet writeups of exploding guns with a big grain of salt unless I have intimate knowledge of the scenario and I highly recommend the same to y'all.

I'm off my soap box now...with asbestos underoos on...fire away!

My son had a first hand experience with a ruptured case in his Glock 23 in Florida. It blew the magazine and slide stop out of the gun and bruised his hand. When he told me about it, my first question was "Factory ammo or reloads?" He replied it was ammo he had bought from a commercial reloader at a gun show. He now is a believer in Glock's admonition to use only new factory ammo in its guns.

I personally wouldn't hesitate to use jacketed (not lead) reloads I had carefully made myself in my own Glock in 9mm or .45ACP (not.40S&W - that cartridge's pressures are too close to the safety limits for me), but I wouldn't use anyone else's.