17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

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Cedar Park Dad
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

AndyC wrote:Irrelevant - he lived there and could walk wherever he wanted.
:iagree:
Agreed.
Further, if his story is accurate then it was legal self defense.

That doesn't mean it was smart.

I'll note TM also had the same right.
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A-R
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by A-R »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
A-R wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:
fickman wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:Do you chase people through subdivision complex?
Can you name one person who does or did?

Zimmerman has been accused of doing that, but NONE of the evidence supports that claim.

His own statements support that claim. He followed TM through the complex, lost him, and turned around when the dispatcher told him to turn around (his testimony).
I interpret following at a safe, non-confrontational distance - or "tailing" - as very different from "chasing".
Didn't turn out to be a safe confrontational distance though did it...

And who CAUSED the following distance to be unsafe and confrontational is the crux of the dispute in question.

All the physical evidence and much testimony points to GZ as the person who was ambushed AND no evidence nor testimony points to TM as the victim of anything other than a single GSW to the chest at muzzle-touch distance.

So, by your implication, GZ "chased" TM, caught up to him, allowed TM to knock him to the ground and beat him multiple blows to the face/head area, then murdered him?

If you were following in such a manner that lets them get that close to you, methinks you were entirely too close. Should have never left the truck.
From a the perspective of non-LEO civilian tactics, I don't disagree. But from a legal perspective, what law did GZ break by exiting his vehicle? And how does this all add up to 2nd-degree murder, manslaughter, or even jaywalking?
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

sjfcontrol wrote:I don't expect this to happen, but...
When the prosecution rests, It would be interesting if the defense stated, "Your honor, the defense doesn't believe we can offer any witnesses better for the defense than the prosecution has already provided. We rest, also."
Its going to be tough I think. If Z doesn't testify, the jury is going to look at him funny. "whats he trying to hide?" "he killed that kid, says it was self defense but won't testify?" etc. but if he does, the prosecution can tear him apart.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

From a the perspective of non-LEO civilian tactics, I don't disagree. But from a legal perspective, what law did GZ break by exiting his vehicle? And how does this all add up to 2nd-degree murder, manslaughter, or even jaywalking?
Agreed. Z had every legal right to do so. Absent the final moments of the confrontation and what actually occurred therein(which is the real crux of the case and there is no witness to), he had every legal right to do everything he did. Still wasn't smart.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by sjfcontrol »

The whole "he never should have left his truck" argument was made ad-nauseum over a year ago in this thread. There really isn't any reason to bring it up again. The fact is, he did what he did. Nothing that he did justified TM's use of force, much less deadly force.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by baldeagle »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:I don't expect this to happen, but...
When the prosecution rests, It would be interesting if the defense stated, "Your honor, the defense doesn't believe we can offer any witnesses better for the defense than the prosecution has already provided. We rest, also."
Its going to be tough I think. If Z doesn't testify, the jury is going to look at him funny. "whats he trying to hide?" "he killed that kid, says it was self defense but won't testify?" etc. but if he does, the prosecution can tear him apart.
I don't think this is a big deal. Most people know that defendants very seldom testify, and courts instruct jurors that the decision not to testify cannot be held against the defendant. If I were Zimmerman's lawyer, I'd put kidnap him and take him to an undisclosed location before I would allow him on the stand.
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Cedar Park Dad
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

sjfcontrol wrote:The whole "he never should have left his truck" argument was made ad-nauseum over a year ago in this thread. There really isn't any reason to bring it up again. The fact is, he did what he did. Nothing that he did justified TM's use of force, much less deadly force.
I disagree. Its are argument for common sense - aka don't do this. He did his part by calling in, and should have stopped at that point.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by ScooterSissy »

Teamless wrote:She does think "Creepy xxx Cracker" is a racial statement ???? REALLY? WHAT!?
Oh My!
This girl has NO credibility,and I surely hope the jury sees that!
I think a lot of people that are trying to "interpret" some of this just don't understand (and I am not being facetious here).
"Some" view "racial" as having to do with whites persecuting other races.
She was told by the media, friends, etc that this was racial, so she believes it is.
"Cracker" has nothing to do with "racial" (see two lines up).
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by A-R »

ScooterSissy wrote:
Teamless wrote:She does think "Creepy xxx Cracker" is a racial statement ???? REALLY? WHAT!?
Oh My!
This girl has NO credibility,and I surely hope the jury sees that!
I think a lot of people that are trying to "interpret" some of this just don't understand (and I am not being facetious here).
"Some" view "racial" as having to do with whites persecuting other races.
She was told by the media, friends, etc that this was racial, so she believes it is.
"Cracker" has nothing to do with "racial" (see two lines up).
Agreed, there is a wide swath of this country that literally believes whites in the US cannot be victims of racism. That racism - by their believed definition - is solely a mechanism of instituionslized white oppression of minorities.

I have debated numerous followers of this belief on this subject, and their belief is fervent to the point of religious fanaticism and wholly unaffected by facts, examples, or rhetoric.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

So if Z is acquitted, should we be concerned about riot situations in Texas?
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by ScooterSissy »

Cedar Park Dad wrote: His own statements support that claim. He followed TM through the complex, lost him, and turned around when the dispatcher told him to turn around (his testimony).
Actually, they do not. They is what you said (my emphasis)
Cedar Park Dad wrote: Do you chase people through subdivision complex?
Now this is what you say Zimmerman stated (again, my emphasis):
Cedar Park Dad wrote:He followed TM through the complex, lost him, and turned around when the dispatcher told him to turn around (his testimony).
You do understand the difference between "chased" and "followed", right?
So now I have a question for you. How does one "observe and report" a moving subject, if one does not "follow" the movement?
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

ScooterSissy wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote: His own statements support that claim. He followed TM through the complex, lost him, and turned around when the dispatcher told him to turn around (his testimony).
Actually, they do not. They is what you said (my emphasis)
Cedar Park Dad wrote: Do you chase people through subdivision complex?
Now this is what you say Zimmerman stated (again, my emphasis):
Cedar Park Dad wrote:He followed TM through the complex, lost him, and turned around when the dispatcher told him to turn around (his testimony).
You do understand the difference between "chased" and "followed", right?
So now I have a question for you. How does one "observe and report" a moving subject, if one does not "follow" the movement?

Fair points.
Call from the truck. Stay in the truck. Meet the police where they say you are supposed to meet them.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by ScooterSissy »

Cedar Park Dad wrote: If you were following in such a manner that lets them get that close to you, methinks you were entirely too close. Should have never left the truck.
And this is your bottom line? That because Zimmerman left the truck, it was OK for Martin to ambush him, pound his face, and bash his head against the pavement?

Seriously?

Again, according to Zimmerman, when he was asked to to stop following, he complied and headed back to his truck. According to Zimmerman, Martin then circled around and ambushed him. Nothing has been stated so far that contridicts that.

Yet you want to pretend that justifies Martin's actions.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by ScooterSissy »

Cedar Park Dad wrote: I disagree. Its are argument for common sense - aka don't do this. He did his part by calling in, and should have stopped at that point.
Let's pretend it's your housing area (this is a collection of condos, not just a residential neighborhood).

You've called in several times. No arrests have been made, and break-ins continue. I can understand that you may have been unwilling to follow and see what the person was doing, but are you still going to try to say that what he did (follow, observe, and report) was somehow unreasonable?
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

Post by ScooterSissy »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:So if Z is acquitted, should we be concerned about riot situations in Texas?
I'll be unconcerned enough that I will continue to do what I do day to day.
I'll be concerned enough that I'll (still) do so armed.
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