G.C.Montgomery wrote:
I later started checking out reports at AmmoLab.com and other independent sources who weren't involved in selling any particular brand of ammunition. Pow'RBall as it turns out is slightly better as far as bullets designed to feed like FMJ but perform like hollowpoints. Still, neither does as well against layered barriers as most modern hollowpoint ammunition or FMJ. But again, my general concern is avoiding overpenetration so I tend to stick with hollowpoints. In the one or two guns where feeding reliability is concerned, I might carry Pow'RBall but most of the time, I'll carry them with FMJ. I do this with the caveat that no matter what ammunition I use, I must remain aware of my threat/target and what it beyond it.
Thanks for the info on Pow'RBall - I'll check it out.
My general concerns are -- in order :
1. Reliable feeding (if the gun isn't reliable, you've likely lost a gunfight as soon as it's started..)
2. Stopping power
3. Avoiding overpenetration
Two and three are actually nearly interchangable. Looking at my gun as a defensive tool, I'm not AS concerned about being able to penetrate barriers (if they're hiding behind something, chances are they aren't shooting at me, and if they are, it's likely not going to be very accurate). My worry about any type of FMJ ball ammo is not enough of #2 above (due to lack of expansion of the round), with possibly too much of #3 (also due to lack of expansion)?
If I could get my Kahr to reliably feed JHP, I'd happily be carrying something like Speer Gold Dot.
Varying the discussing a bit (but actually getting back more to topic, at least for this thread) -- has anyone heard any "reliable" reports of heavy clothing (ie, leather jacket, etc) being a "barrier" to any modern JHP ammo? Something tells me this is hogwash, but I've read some discussion of clothing/etc possibly "plugging" hollowpoint ammo, resulting in less stopping power - just wondering if this was actually known to be an issue? I suppose I could see a JHP round behaving more like FMJ IF the "hollow point" was plugged with some substance, but even then (at worst) it'd perform like FMJ.
Handgun bullets, regardless of caliber, fired at a shallow angle into a typical residential or commercial wall structure may breakup and fail to penetrate the wall. .
That is a better description. I was referring to the angle compared to perpindicular to the wall. Yours is in relation to the wall and is a better descriptor.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Velocity wrote:... has anyone heard any "reliable" reports of heavy clothing (ie, leather jacket, etc) being a "barrier" to any modern JHP ammo? Something tells me this is hogwash, ...
Weird stuff happens during real-life shootings. My take on this is that someone, somewhere was shot through heavy clothing and was not seriously injured; but that happens to people who are not wearing much, and even head shots.
Velocity wrote:
Varying the discussing a bit (but actually getting back more to topic, at least for this thread) -- has anyone heard any "reliable" reports of heavy clothing (ie, leather jacket, etc) being a "barrier" to any modern JHP ammo? Something tells me this is hogwash, but I've read some discussion of clothing/etc possibly "plugging" hollowpoint ammo, resulting in less stopping power - just wondering if this was actually known to be an issue? I suppose I could see a JHP round behaving more like FMJ IF the "hollow point" was plugged with some substance, but even then (at worst) it'd perform like FMJ.
With modern ammo that does not seem to be an issue. Police in cold northern states are not carrying FMJ in the winter.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Velocity wrote:... has anyone heard any "reliable" reports of heavy clothing (ie, leather jacket, etc) being a "barrier" to any modern JHP ammo? Something tells me this is hogwash, ...
Weird stuff happens during real-life shootings. My take on this is that someone, somewhere was shot through heavy clothing and was not seriously injured; but that happens to people who are not wearing much, and even head shots.
- Jim
Thanks! There are SO many variables involved in a situation like a shooting that making any type of generalizations is bound to invoke the "for every rule, there's an exception" clause..
Actually, this article was a VERY interesting read, and DOES seem to lend some credibility to the idea of JHP NOT expanding as designed when having to penetrate clothing before hitting the intended target (possibly due to the HP having been "plugged" with clothing material)?
Too bad the author didn't try EFMJ in his tests, I'd be interested to see if he'd of had similar results, or if the EFMJ would of lived up to it's claim of full expansion...
Velocity wrote:Actually, this article was a VERY interesting read, and DOES seem to lend some credibility to the idea of JHP NOT expanding as designed when having to penetrate clothing before hitting the intended target (possibly due to the HP having been "plugged" with clothing material)?
The Box o' Truth is interesting, and the author is a hoot, but it really isn't scientific testing. They need to have multiple rounds of the same ammo from the same weapon fired through clothing or not.
Expansion in water jugs doesn't equate to performance in tissue, either.
Even an unexpanded round is bad news when it goes through a vital organ.
Velocity wrote:Too bad the author didn't try EFMJ in his tests, I'd be interested to see if he'd of had similar results, or if the EFMJ would of lived up to it's claim of full expansion...
You can try it, and so can I.
I've shot single water jugs with .357 Magnum hollowpoints. The jugs are blown up and I never found a bullet. Filling and hauling several gallon jugs to where I shoot is too much like work.
seamusTX wrote:The Box o' Truth is interesting, and the author is a hoot, but it really isn't scientific testing. They need to have multiple rounds of the same ammo from the same weapon fired through clothing or not.
It turns out the real unknown in our defense package is our defense ammo. ballistic gel isn't like human flesh, its very uniform has no bones and is very no hard or soft organs. It seems as though the only valid testing would be clothed animals. Something like goats or hogs.
I'm told that heavy clothing such as a Denim Jacket will interfere with Hydrashocks. is there anything better? Can I trust it will work in my gun? It turns out its very expensive to run 2 or 3 hundred rounds of this stuff to test for reliability.
we can spend a lot of money and thought on which hand gun we carry, but perhaps just as important, is what ammo we carry.
Ballistic gel is the standard for ammunution testing. They have penetration factors and wound channel data they look for to determine performance.
The FBI does exhaustive testing woth ballistic gel. They test it with body armor, clothing, etc.
Here is the FBI Protocol;
"FBI Ballistic Test Protocol:
Briefly, the performance standards are simple. A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to make the hole bigger. This increases the amount of vital tissue damaged, increases the chance of damaging vital tissue with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster hemorrhage can occur the better.
The FBI Ammunition Test Protocol is a series of practically oriented tests to measure a bullet's ability to meet these performance standards. The result is an assessment of a bullet's ability to inflict effective wounds after defeating various intervening obstacles commonly present in law enforcement shootings. The overall results of a test are thus indicative of that specific cartridge's suitability for the wide range of conditions in which law enforcement officers engage in shootings.
The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4° Centigrade (39.2° Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue. The 10 % gelatin has been correlated against the actual results of over 200 shooting incidents. Each gelatin block is calibrated before use to insure its composition is within defined parameters. Copies of the test protocol are available upon request for those interested in duplication the testing or reviewing the procedures in greater detail.
The gelatin blocks for handgun rounds are approximately six inches square and 16 inches long. As necessary, additional blocks are lined up in contact with each other to insure containment of the bullet's total penetration. Each shot's penetration is measured to the nearest 0.25 inch. The projectile is recovered, weighed, and measured for expansion by averaging its greatest diameter with its smallest diameter.
The Ammunition Test Protocol using this gelatin is composed of eight test events. In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test materials are used for each individual shot. The complete test consists of firing 40 shots. Each test event is discussed below in order. All firing in these eight tests events is done with a typical service weapon representative of those used by law enforcement. The weapon used is fully described in each test report.
Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.
Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.
Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.
The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.
Test Event 4: Wallboard Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.
Test Event 5: Plywood One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.
Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.
Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15° offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.
In addition to the above described series of test events, each cartridge is tested for velocity and accuracy. Twenty rounds are fired through a test barrel and twenty rounds are fired through the service weapon used in the penetration tests. All velocities are measured and reported.
Two ten-shot groups are fired from the test barrel, and two from the service weapon used, at 25 yards. They are measured from center to center of the two most widely spaced holes, averaged and reported.
Test barrel results demonstrate a round's potential independent of any weapon factors which can affect performance. Test barrel results are the purest measure of inherent capability for accuracy and velocity. Repeating these tests with a service weapon shows how well the cartridge/weapon combination may realize that potential."
I will attempt to get my friend in the Bureau to send me his most recent list of approved ammo, and results if he can release it.
He tells me though, that your high quality modern defense ammo in proper calibers are all eeffective within their use envelope.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Older JHP's do not perform as well thru thick clothing. Modern LE JHP's are designed to do better. I carry Winchester Rangers, although there are many choices.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
Unless I missed it, I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the reliability of hollowpoint performance improves with higher bullet velocities. The lower threshold seems to be around 800f/s for fairly predictable expansion, with velocities upwards of about 1100f/s giving rock-solid performance. Lighter and faster seems to be the trend in defensive ammo.
Interestingly, the Gold Dot 9mms tend to cave inward after sheet metal penetration, behaving like hardball afterward. Others may do this also, but I am not aware of it. For the experimentally inclined, a standard 9mm hardball round, shot at a 15-degree angle into a Honda Accord, entering from the rear, can pass through the trunk lid, forward trunk bulkhead, rear seat, and front seat, coming to rest inside the front door. Note that the front seat was unoccupied in this experiment.
I still like hardball for a .45, as it is a tried-and-true load, but I'm gradually transitioning to Gold Dot +P for that application as well. Old habits do die hard.
For anyone interested in the Speer technical data sheet for the 9mm +P, which contains manufacturing specs and FBI test data, including photographs, please pm me, as I only have it in PDF format, no link.
The anecdote related above was a case where the bullet struck the sheetrock at a shallow angle (down a hall) which is why it had a hard time penetrating. If it had been close to a 90-degree angle of incidence, most any JHP round would penetrate 2 layers easily.
-----------
“Sometimes there is no alternative to uncertainty except to await the arrival of more and better data.” C. Wunsch
Quote: " If I could get my Kahr to reliably feed JHP, I'd happily be carrying something like Speer Gold Dot. "
Hmmmm ... Sorry to hear it. Both my old K-9 and PM-9 run fine with 'em.
FWIW, I saw on another forum that Kahr had a "barrel recall" on some of the early PM-9s. After the break-in period, mine had run fine with everything I'd put through it, but I sent barrel to 'em anyway and they did a little work on feedramp - supposedly to make it eat more varieties.
Another FWIW : Earlier this year a buddy and I chronoed some of the Ranger 9mm +P+ stuff (124 grain?) out of all 3 sizes of Glocks. I don't have the numbers handy, but it was quite rapid - almost approaching .357 Sig velocities out of the 17. And, at least at gun shows, it's been available at decent prices in 50-round boxes. I keep my 19 loaded with it now - but have been somewhat reluctant to risk beating up the PM-9 with it. Still standard pressure Gold Dots there ...
Greybeard wrote:
Yea ... we too found it a little odd that his old 26 spit the Ranger stuff out faster than my brand new 19 ...
The new 19 will likely show better velocities after the barrel breaks in. My Glocks needed a thousand rounds or so before the groups tightened up and things smoothed out.
) 7-shot string from Kahr PM-9 with 124g Gold Dots: 1,041 fps.