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G26ster wrote:What's missing from this conversation is that lasers are not replacements for iron sights. They are best when used when positioning/situation does not allow for the accurate use of iron sights. One should practice with both iron sights and laser sights if you have a laser on your weapon. If you are using iron sights, and the laser is on, you should not be able to see the dot on your target, once your iron sights are lined up, if the laser is properly zeroed. It will be masked by the front sight. If you are using the laser alone, and are distracted by the dancing dot, you have likely waited far too long to fire. Real life and death situations are not range target shooting situations. MHO and $.02.

Friends, we aren't talking bullseye competition, we're talking staying alive. If your focus in a firing solution goes beyond the front sight, you have the wrong mindset.

One hundred percent focus on the front sight. Centered on the body mass of the threat. Squeeze. Trigger reset. Repeat as needed. FUNDAMENTALS. That's how you survive a gunfight.

glbedd53 wrote:If I can hit the target with the laser and I can't without it, that is fundamental. Lasers work great for me because I can't focus close and far at the same time.

Why would you want to? FOCUS on the front site, and center it on the target.

glbedd53 wrote:I am a fan of lasers on handguns. I am not a fan of gadgets. What I am is 59 years old with eyes that are not as good as they used to be. If you're not that old you may find out when you get there. If you're in a somewhat dark place and have to use your gun, fundamentals may not cut it if you can't see your sights unless you do a lot of practice in the dark.

At 56, I'm not that far behind ya. I don't have true binocular vision (can't make me see double), my eyes operate independently from each other and my brain has adapted to that over the years, including the loss of depth perception. I'm badly nearsighted in my dominant eye, 20/20 with a touch of astigmatism in the other, and I'm developing cataracts that aren't operable yet. Three dot or tritium night sights work great for me. I love the fiber-optic front sight on my XDs because if there IS any ambient light, it glows out a loud "focus on me" message...which, of course, is where your focus should be. I said all that to say this.

FUNDAMENTALS. Yes, they do cut it. Find what you need to do to use them. Practice, practice, practice, develop muscle memory, and then practice some more.

While you're lasin', I'm out shooting. Just sayin'...

Divided Attention wrote:For me a laser shows me just how bad I shake and distract me terribly - some folks love 'em - just not for me. My mantra - "Front sight"

Salty1 wrote:Many good points are made on this topic, one that may have ben missed is that many guns are not truly functional at certain ranges due to the lack of proper sights. The LCP comes to mind, how many people would be willing to take a 50 foot shot with an LCP? ....

Why would you want to carry a "defensive" pistol that doesn't have functional sights? (And that's without even going into the .380 as a defensive round. I consider it somewhere between "stern words" and a 9mm )

Sorry, but if it doesn't have usable sights, it's worthless in my book.

Skiprr wrote:

packina45 wrote:I'm a product tech support specialist for a major firearms and sporting goods distributor. Want to know how I spend a lot of my time at work?

Talking people out of putting lasers on defensive handguns.

Might lasers have a purpose for some people? Possibly.

Should we all rush out and buy rail-mounted lasers? I don't think so.

My preference with a flashlight and handgun is the Harries technique. Gonna be difficult to convince me otherwise...

n5wd wrote:
Oh, so it's just the cheap lasers that you're railing against? If I walked into your shop and wanted a Viridian C5L, would you want to talk me out of it?

You miss the point entirely. Sure, lasers can have their place. I don't happen to think a handgun is one of them, but we're each entitled to our own opinion on that.

The POINT of the discussion is that the TYPICAL, untrained laser buyer is doing so to compensate for his lack of fundamentals. Would you ride a hunter-jumper through a hunt course your first time on a horse? Attempt to repair a nuclear reactor with minimal tools and no mechanical ability? Drive in rush-hour traffic your first time behind the wheel?

When teaching a child to shoot, do you rush out and buy them a 10/22 with a 3x9 scope and a laser on it? Or do you get them a single-shot, bolt-action Cricket?

Fundamentals first. That's all I'm sayin'. If you can't use the sights on your weapon, that's where you need to start. Spend that laser money on range ammo.

G.A. Heath wrote:Regarding hanging a laser off the rail on a handgun. Not all lasers need a rail, Crimson trace products come to mind as does lasermax's guid rod setup. As far as batteries go, unless you leave it on all the time they tend to last a while. I replace my CTC lasers batteries every year, even though they illuminate the device plenty well, and I check the laser's function everytime I press check the pistol (At least once a day). As far as holsters go, any of the true custom shops should support popular handguns with popular lasers.

See above. CTC and Lasermax are expensive. The average laser buyer I deal with wants to spend under fifty to seventy-five bucks. You wouldn't believe the number of Leapers UTG and Barska lasers we sell.

Lonest4r wrote:Lasers are not without their advantages. Sure a laser can limit the potential holster choices if that laser is affixed to the rail, but if it is the Crimson Trace style that is integrated into the grip of the pistol this is hardly limiting the holster selection. Even with a laser that attaches to the rail of a pistol I can find plenty of custom holsters on the market.

Sure, you can get custom holsters. I carry my full-size XD in a non-off-shelf holster. But the average person will spend $600 on a handgun and then want the cheapest holster (and laser) they can possibly buy. You think I'm joking? Had a customer last week that spend in excess of $1700 on a Colt AR-15 TALO edition with MagPul everything, and wanted a "good red dot sight under $50" to put on it.

Secondly, the laser dot aids in the practice of firing from the hip, which is a likely scenario in the event an aggressor surprises you and is in very close proximity.

So does range practice at three yards or less. MUSCLE MEMORY is the key.

Lastly, even with a laser sight device attached to a CCW the primary sights are still the ones built onto the gun. If batteries die, finish the firefight and either replace the batteries or chunk the laser to reduce weight (TEOTWAWKI).

Unfortunately, the average laser buyer doesn't see it that way. They want the laser to compensate for their inability to USE the sights on the weapon. They just want to see the dot and pull the trigger.

I'm a product tech support specialist for a major firearms and sporting goods distributor. Want to know how I spend a lot of my time at work?

Talking people out of putting lasers on defensive handguns.

Everyone thinks they gotta have the beams.

So, for those thinking about a laser, consider this. First of all, there is no beam, unless you're in a dusty room (or just popped a flash-bang and filled the room with smoke. Are you on a tactical entry team?) There's no magic beam. There's just a point on the target. Unless the target is scanning and looking for you in the dark room. Then the bright red or green light on the end of your weapon just gave away your position.

Secondly, once you dangle a laser off your oh-so-tactical handgun rail, you just narrowed down your concealable holster selection field by a factor of 100 or more. Suddenly, there's not a holster that fits your carry weapon. No holster, no carry, what good is your plastic now?

And third, when the zombies arise and we reach TEOTWAWKI (I'm tongue in cheek here guys) ... where ya gonna find a battery? More importantly, what will you do when you NEED that laser, and your battery is past its use-by date?

FUNDAMENTALS, people. Sight picture, squeeze, trigger reset. Repeat as needed until the threat stops. Breathe. Look for another threat. Muscle memory. Practice, practice, practice. Because when it is you on the line in a no-kidding life or death situation, and the lizard-brain fight-or-flight reflex kicks in, the first thing you'll lose is fine motor control. You wouldn't be able to insert a key into a lock, you think you'll remember how to turn your laser on?

Spend your laser money on range ammo and range fees. FUNDAMENTALS. They'll save your life. Gadgets won't.

Feel free to disagree...