Licensed open-carry or unlicensed open-carry?

[C-dub]

I am against unlicensed OC, if OC has to happen at all, I would prefer licensed.

I guess I am concerned a bit however: what If licensed open carry were made into law. And OC became pretty 'normal', where people stopped having the "shock factor' of seeing guns all over place, there are 2 issues that I have (1 is for Licensed and 1 is for OC in general).
1 - If licensed OC is law, what then stops others without the license to OC? yes, you could say the same for CC, but at least with CC, people do not see it. if OC, then other 'posers' or even criminals could OC and blend in with law abiding OC'ers.
2 - for general OC, what happens when someone has a hip holster, and then throws a jacket on, they are then CC and unless they are licensed for CC, they are now breaking the law. I would guess that normal law abiding people would then get jammed up for breaking the law.

As far as #2 goes, they would be breaking the law if they did not have a CHL. This is the case in several other states.

#1 is a bit more sticky, but it is just something that we would have to deal with. There are many states that have allowed OC for ever and some of them unlicensed. It just doesn't seem like there have been any or many criminals OC. Was it the Secret Service or FBI that had done studies or put out some statistics that said criminals don't OC because they don't want to draw attention to themselves until they are ready to commit their crime. Even then they still don't want to draw a lot of attention to themselves. They just want to commit their crime and fade away. Attention is what gets them caught.

Now, as far as OC goes, there are some who want the attention and others that like it just for the comfort aspect. I think we all acknowledge that any one who does OC will get more attention. Especially if it is done in a state that decriminalizes it when they did not allowed it for so long. Someone openly carrying in Arizona will draw far less attention than in Texas if it ever becomes legal again.

[ron1n1]

I vote for licensed open carry primarily because it will be easier to get passed into law.

From a public policy perspective, requiring background checks, competency tests, etc. before carrying in public makes a certain amount of sense. Think about a driver's license--it's nice to know that (in theory, at least) the 'other guy' on the road has demonstrated a basic understanding of the laws involved and some minimal level of competency in operating a moving vehicle. It's never perfect of course, but it (again, in theory) achieves some level of reducing harm to the public.

Licensed open carry, then, should be presented as simply an alternative to concealed carry, kind of like a motorcycle driver's license instead of a class C. We're not expanding or adding anything, merely providing an alternative method to the existing privilege.

I could see the law allowing open carry with either a CHL or a new OHL. This new license would have the same legal qualifications, same course of fire requirements, but a shorter class requirement and a lower cost. We will also need a new OHL instructor license to go with it if the instructor is not already qualified to teach the CHL class.

So the selling points are:

-no material expansion of rights/privileges
-criminals and the mentally unfit are excluded
-additional revenue stream to the state for education, law enforcement, etc.
-more jobs for Texans--DPS will have to hire additional license processors and firearms instructors will have additional students

What's a left leaning elected official not going to like?

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[C-dub]

Hello Ron1n1. Welcome to the forum!

With this type of reasoning we could end up with the type of licensing that Nevada has. We would be required to qualify with each type of weapon in order to carry it. We do that now with revolvers versus semi-autos, but it could be worse. I carry a Glock, but if I wanted to get a 1911 I might have to qualify with it before I could carry it. We have Class C,M,A, and CDL driver's licenses. I don't know how many others there are.

[TrueFlog]

Unlicensed, definitely.

Good point C-dub.

Anygunanywhere

In Unlic carrry, can a LEO stop and ask for ID and check if the OCer is not a felon? Or do you allow the violent felons to OC?

Well, the way I figure it, if OC requires a license the police will stop anyone they see open carrying just to check if they have a license. But, if it is unlicensed OC then they have no reason to stop someone unless they are committing a crime. Oh, and I'm not naive enough to think that it still won't happen, but it will cost some departments some money when they do. However, whether a person is violent or not is irrelevant. If they are not committing a crime at that moment then what's the problem whether they OC or CC without a license?

I also think that if and when OC is legal in Texas that a license will be required. Having it be unlicensed is JMHO.

Agreed. If OC is licensed, then the law will most certainly require that we show our ID and license upon demand. (Similar to what we already have for CHL.) This would allow the police to execute a "Stop-and-ID" (i.e. "Stop-and-Harass") on anyone who's OC'ing. Such a stop would be unconstitutional and contrary to Terry, but do we really want to go to court and fight it? And who's going to volunteer to be our test case? Someone else tried to compare this to the licensing requirement for driving and claimed that since police don't Stop-and-ID motorists, they won't Stop-and-ID OC'ers either. The problem is that police Stop-and-ID drivers all the time and for various reasons - being the wrong race in the wrong part of town, being out at the wrong time of night, fishing expeditions, if the cop has a quota to fill (as they do in Dallas), etc. It already happens to motorists, and it would happen even more to OC'ers given the political nature of the issue. You won't find many cops who oppose our privilege to drive, but there are many who oppose our right to bear arms. Stop-and-Harass will always be an issue with OC, and requiring a license will only make it worse. (Note that this is not a reason to abandon OC altogether. We are still a nation of laws - not a police state. Not yet...)

Another reason I oppose licensing OC is because it would tend to blur the line between OC and CC and tie the two rights together. In order to protect our existing rights vis a vie the CHL, I think it's best to keep OC a separate issue. For example, if no license is required to OC, then 30.06 doesn't apply to someone who's OC'ing. I would advocate that banning OC would require a second, equally-hideous sign. However, if one license covers both OC and CC, then it's likely that one sign will cover them both as well. For those that worry about OC affecting our CHL rights, I think the best approach is to make OC legal with no license, end of story, completely separate from the CHL issue.

But the most important reason of all is this - when it comes to 2A rights, any licensing scheme is nothing more than a system of bribes. That includes both OC and CHL. It's no different from a poll tax, and it has its roots in the same insidious racism. Requiring a class and a license places an undue burden on all classes of people and especially serves to disenfranchise the poor - those who need the right most of all. Also, the time required to issue the license thwarts those whose need is most urgent (think domestic abuse). Martin Luther King Jr. stated, "A right delayed is a right denied." I would add to that, "A right which must be purchased is no right at all." In Texas, it is currently illegal to carry a firearm without a mandatory expense and waiting period (aka a CHL). This flies in the face of the Constitution, and licensed OC would do nothing to resolve this abhorrence.

[Purplehood]

Unlicensed Open-Carry. But I can see us getting there incrementally.

[anygunanywhere]

I support OC if for no other reason the problem with printing/unintentional failure to conceal problem that we have seen here in the past. I assume OC would eliminate these possible problems.

Oops - I think CHL should be required for OC as opposed to no license.

Neither printing nor unintentional faillure to conceal are offenses under state law. How can they be a problem if they are not illegal?

Anygunanywhere

You reckon that the problem might lie in convincing the LEO AND the judge that the exposures weren't intentional?

You reckon that I am not all that concerned with printing and unintentional falure to conceal because I check to make certain I am concealed and I am aware of my cover garments when I carry?

If spmeone is falsely arrested then there is a way to adress that issue.

Anygunanywhere

[Pacific Job]

I vote for same as long guns. It's not a problem in other "cowboy" states like New Mexico and Arizona.

[74novaman]

I vote for same as long guns. It's not a problem in other "cowboy" states like New Mexico and Arizona.

Yep, and I sure see a lot of people open carrying long guns. So open carry of handguns should definitely be the highest and only legislative priority!!!

[Pacific Job]

the highest and only legislative priority!!!

Now you're just making up strawmen to knock down. That's a sure sign you have no factual basis for continuing this restriction on RKBA in Texas.

Why do you feel so threanened by the idea of Texans having the right to not have to hide our handguns?

[74novaman]

I'm a little confused how I'm the one creating straw men....when you're the one citing Arizona and New Mexico....but unlicensed carry of long guns is perfectly legal right here in Texas. Why even use other states as examples when you have Texas to consider?

I've got an idea. Why don't you go open carry a long gun down Congress Ave in Austin and let me know how that works out for ya. Just to be nice, it doesn't even have to be an Evil Black Rifle, just a good old shotgun or bolt action rifle will do.

Unless you can get away with that perfectly legal activity with no trouble, please don't even waste your breath telling me how no one will notice people open carrying and won't raise a stink about it.

And I'll tell you what I'm threatened by. Its not my fellow Texans openly carrying handguns. Its the commiefornia transplants, and the people who have never been around guns who are going to freak the heck out and either install 30.06 in their own businesses or shriek so loudly that the businesses they visit post 30.06 signs and start denying me my right to conceal carry, just because somebody felt that open carry was the only way to go.

Barack Obama got 43.8% of the vote in Texas in 2008. While we have good gun laws, there are plenty of people in this state who are not fond of the 2A, and don't raise a stink about it currently because THEY HAVE NO IDEA SO MANY PEOPLE ARE CARRYING AROUND THEM EVERYDAY. If you think everyone is going to support open carry because "Its Texas" then you haven't been paying attention to the political landscape at all.

By the way, calling me anti2A (and there's no other way to interpret your last response) is a great way to win me over to open carry.

Let's get open carry passed right now! Because otherwise other gun people will call me anti-rights!!!

Good luck with that strategy.

I look forward to doing all I can to help pass Conceal Carry on College Campus.

As to the OC people, every time someone has mentioned the simple fact that the media will not be our friends in this fight and that in all likelihood, businesses will begin to prohibit carry of any sort so they don't have to deal with open carry, who then resort to calling me an anti rights person, you've lost any hope of support you had from me.

Maybe next time you shouldn't take your lessons in how to deal with people who have a differing opinion from Al Sharpton. Calling me a bigot will only make me angry, not win me over.

Intellectually, I support the idea of open carry being legal. Seeing the type of people who support it and their continued reliance on "reasonable discourse" by calling me a bigot, I'm over it. You can't even manage to win over your fellow 2A supporters....good luck in Austin!

[Pacific Job]

I don't get your point about Congress Ave in Austin.

Are you saying we need a law to require long guns to be concealed too?

Because Texas was taken over by antigun yankees and californicaters?

[74novaman]

Either you are terrible at reading comprehension or deliberately misinterpreting my post. Either way, this is probably the last response I'll bother with regarding your comments.

I am absolutely, unequivocally, NOT saying we need any sort of law regulating long guns. I'm simply saying if you're not able to open carry a long gun around Texas without getting a bunch of MWAG calls or cops stopping you, then maybe the climate isn't right to pass open carry of handguns.

This is a gradual process. We have years of bad hollywood movies, ignorance, and media hysteria to overcome. We passed concealed carry. No blood in the streets. We were able to pass the "big ugly sign" (30.06) two years later because of reactionary anti gun postings. We have continued to improve gun laws here in Texas. Little steps work here in Texas. Eventually, I'd love to have Arizona style carry (unlicensed, open or concealed). How do you get there? One step at a time.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Quit trying to eat the whole dang elephant in one meal. You'll just get a stomach ache, and there will still be a lot of elephant left on your plate.



As an aside, I have heard before people talk about the "people are unobservant, most wouldn't even notice." regarding open carry last congressional session. I tried it with my fiance. I carried a 1911 in an OWB holster under a sweatshirt to the grocery store. When we got home, pulled the sweatshirt off to see how long it would take her to notice I was open carrying (something I'd never bothered to do around her before). The second she walked into the kitchen, she looked down and said "your gun is showing". I think people would notice. And unfortunately, unlike my fiance (now wife), some would probably be a little more freaked out by it. I'd love to pass open carry. But if it costs me places I can currently conceal carry, no freakin thanks.

As I'm about to hit submit, I notice that I've written you 2 novels now trying to explain my point. If you don't get it by now, well.....

[Pacific Job]

I get it now. Some people think that legalized open carry of rifles isn't a problem in Texas, therefore legalizing open carry of handguns in Texas will definitely cause problems. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[74novaman]

One more thing PRJ. I was going to send you a PM, but you dont have those enabled. I know the internet is bad at conveying intent and emotion. I mean you personally no ill will, and respect you as a fellow 2A supporter. I just have a different idea about how to go about things with the legislature.

[74novaman]

I get it now. Some people think that legalized open carry of rifles isn't a problem in Texas, therefore legalizing open carry of handguns in Texas will definitely cause problems. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

You've already got me breaking my "I won't respond to your posts" post.

Legalized open carry of rifles isnt a problem in Texas because NO ONE DOES IT. At least, outside of hunting or rural areas. Thus my "open carry down congress ave" idea.