Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

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Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#1

Post by Paladin » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Karl Rehn has an interesting series/slideshow called Beyond the One Percent
The Beyond the One Percent presentation explores the topic of how many people train, why they train, what courses they choose and why, and ways to possibly motivate more than 1% of adult gun owners to take training beyond their state minimum.
One important point he makes is that if you look at all-hazards risks and priority, health and fitness are clearly the #1 thing we should all be working on.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#2

Post by Grundy1133 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:22 am

I wanna take more classes once i find a new job.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#3

Post by flechero » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:48 am

KR is a good school and Karl has done an excellent job building it and it's curriculum.

We push for a "guys day" in our bible study group... trying to get a group to go take classes. The hard part is that some have no training and some of us do. (hate to retake the more basic stuff)

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#4

Post by Beiruty » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:54 am

Come shoot with us at Dallas Pistol Club and your real-life shooting skills would improve dramatically.
Myself and many others would coach you for FREE. Very cool guys there.
Tomorrow Match is the Metal Mania, an easy steel match for begineers

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#5

Post by Interblog » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:04 am

We live in an information-overload society. In order to get more people to shoot, something has to make information about good classes rise to the top of peoples' awareness piles. That doesn't seem to be stressed in the referenced author's slide show, but as someone for whom shooting is not the primary hobby, that's what I see as the single biggest barrier. I'd love to take more shooting classes, but I don't know where they are, and it seems like a crap shoot (pun intended) to just pick one or more of them randomly from general advertisements and hope for the best. Especially given that even the short classes represent significant investments of disposable income.

In terms of a secondary barrier, I think that range environments can also be discouraging, in part through no fault of their own, with the laws of supply and demand being what they are. The local range closest to my house is difficult to get into on weekends when people have free time - the lane wait times can exceed the time I actually want to spend actively shooting. Plus the range fees almost triple compared to their weekday "happy hour" rates. People come away from that kind of experience wondering if it's worth trying to take classes when it's tough to even get in to practice.

Any measures that increase desired behavior have to incorporate some means of facilitating that desired behavior. It's a two-way street. The shooter has to actually get off the couch and get out there to engage with training resources, but the path to those training resources also has to be well-defined and as free of obstacles as possible.

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#6

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:53 am

I could do a full podcast on this topic. Unfortunately, the only people that would listen are those who are already on our side of the training issue.

Here are some facts I've learned over decades of being an instructor.
  • 1. Most LTC students are not serious shooters, thus they don't shoot matches or attend training classes;
    2. Most female LTC students attend class only because of one of the following:
    • a. The man in their life convinced them to come (father, husband, boyfriend, brother);
      b. Something happened to them or someone close that wakes them up to everyday dangers;
      c. They personally survived a violent crime;
    3. Only a fraction of LTC students will take even intermediate classes, much less advanced classes;
    • a. Most think additional training isn't necessary (See No. 7 below);
      b. Many are turned off by high pressure sales pitches during LTC classes;
      c. Many simply don't have the money for additional training (class fee, ammo)
    4. The biggest market/need is truly basic training and:
    • a. Women are the most likely to attend;
      b. (See No. 2 above)
    5. Many non-LTC firearms instruction advertising intimidates potential students;
    6. Many non-LTC classes are perceived to be overpriced;
    7. "Other guy syndrome" infects most people (only the other guy/gal will be a crime victim);
    8. Most people who train to a moderate or high level of proficiency do so because:
    • a. Their job requires it; or
      b. They enjoy guns and shooting
I have offered free training for select people in our church, yet few accept the offer. Some will attend one or two sessions, but life always gets in the way. The feeling is, once again, it won't happen to me and I really want to go shopping Saturday morning. I have more paid students than people attending classes or coaching sessions for free.

I have some ideas guys/gals, but truly reaching the untapped population will require instructors to donate time and most are not in a position to do so. I was putting togehter a consortium to promot firearms education and training in the minority community. There is a huge need in that population. At a point, the "what's in it for me" element raised it's head and the project went no further.

I don't fault any businessman for wanting to make a profit. Although I do a good bit of free training, I charge for most of my classes. However, reaching a larger segment of the gun-owning, gun-carrying population requires an altruistic approach as opposed to a commercial market-expanding approach. But even if every firearms instructor in Texas committed to teaching X students for free, perhaps even providing guns and ammo, the student needs to be willing to spend the money to practice on a regular basis. Without that commitment from the student, all the free training in the world will not make a long-term impact.

Now here's a fact that instructors and those of us who train and shoot a lot aren't going to like. Most people don't need any training beyond truly basic training. I know that statement will draw the ire of many, but look at the number of homeowners, often elderly women, are forced to shoot an attacker in their home. These women likely don't have any training beyond someone showing them how to load and fire their pistols, yet they prevail in a deadly assault. Sure, this same person would not fare as well with multiple armed attackers, or a run-and-gun street battle, or fighting from inside their car, but that's not how the majority of self-defense shooting happen.

At the end of the day, those of us who join gun clubs, participate here on the Forum, go to gun shows, shoot matches, and train extensively love what we are doing. Guns and shooting are a hobby so we don't mind investing time and money. Contrary to what anti-gun liars will claim, we pray we never have to put our skills to use in a combat setting, but if the need arises, we have the required skills to survive a deadly assault. It's not that we trained for that day, it's simply a side benefit of our hobby.

BTW, I'm not talking about sheepdog personalities as described by Col. Grossman. That's a different mindset and motivation entirely.

Chas.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#7

Post by LDB415 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:05 pm

One way would be a tiered CHL. Something like everyone gets a level 1 that applies and passes, like now. Level 2 requires xx hours additional training and xxx rounds additional fire at maybe 80% rather than the 70% level 1. Those with level 2 can carry anywhere in the state regardless of signage. Level 3 requires xx hours above level 2 and xxx rounds above level 2 at 90%. Those with level 3 are equivalent to air marshals and exempt from no firearms on airplanes rules. Renewal requires 25% of the training hours and 50% of the firing rounds every 2 or 3 years. I suspect there would be quite a number of people who would attempt the upgrades and get more training.

Yeah, I know the air marshal part is difficult if not impossible. Just an example.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#8

Post by Liberty » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:32 pm

LDB415 wrote:One way would be a tiered CHL. Something like everyone gets a level 1 that applies and passes, like now. Level 2 requires xx hours additional training and xxx rounds additional fire at maybe 80% rather than the 70% level 1. Those with level 2 can carry anywhere in the state regardless of signage. Level 3 requires xx hours above level 2 and xxx rounds above level 2 at 90%. Those with level 3 are equivalent to air marshals and exempt from no firearms on airplanes rules. Renewal requires 25% of the training hours and 50% of the firing rounds every 2 or 3 years. I suspect there would be quite a number of people who would attempt the upgrades and get more training.

Yeah, I know the air marshal part is difficult if not impossible. Just an example.
From near as I can tell we have done quite with the CHL/LTC program we have now. We don't have a lot of bad shoots, we don't have a lot of incidental casualtys, but we have done pretty well defending ourselves when the need arises. I understand that many/most of us could use more training. There is no real history where lack of training has been a real public safety issue.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#9

Post by thatguyoverthere » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:44 pm

LDB415 wrote:One way would be a tiered CHL. Something like everyone gets a level 1 that applies and passes, like now. Level 2 requires xx hours additional training and xxx rounds additional fire at maybe 80% rather than the 70% level 1. Those with level 2 can carry anywhere in the state regardless of signage. Level 3 requires xx hours above level 2 and xxx rounds above level 2 at 90%. Those with level 3 are equivalent to air marshals and exempt from no firearms on airplanes rules. Renewal requires 25% of the training hours and 50% of the firing rounds every 2 or 3 years. I suspect there would be quite a number of people who would attempt the upgrades and get more training.

Yeah, I know the air marshal part is difficult if not impossible. Just an example.
Just about 1 year ago, Arkansas passed a new law that brought about an "enhanced" conceal carry license that could be had by taking some number of additional hours of training. That "enhanced" license allowed those persons to take their concealed handgun into some places beyond what was allowed by a "standard" license. Other states may have something similar; I don't know.

It might be interesting/informative to know the ratio of enhanced vs. standard concealed carry licenses in Arkansas. That might be an indicator of how much interest potential licensees have in a tiered system. (or be an indicator of the number of people willing to take extra training).

But I wouldn't have a clue where to find that information on the number of persons with the two different types of licenses in Arkansas, if it's even available.

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#10

Post by bblhd672 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:45 pm

I see the same question at various “prepper” sites. There doesn’t seem to be any good answers to get people motivated to prepare for unexpected events.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#11

Post by bigtek » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:49 pm

Good training is beneficial. Poor training can range from a waste of time and money to a very bad thing, depending whether the student has sufficient experience and good training to know better.

I don't support a tiered system for firearms unless there's also a tiered system for voting. :rules:

However, a tiered system sounds good for driving. The current license would allow someone to operate an automobile with up to 150 hp. A vehicle with more than 150 hp would require a high performance endorsement, like for airplanes. Driving a pickup truck in counties with a population over 500,000 would require a separate test to show they can turn on city streets without a lane violation, and park within the lines of a single space at Walmart. Any collision would require a license retest. Two moving violations within 18 months would also require a retest. If they fail a retest, they have to wait 30 days to try again. In the case of hardship conditions, they can apply for a restricted license which allows them to operate cars with less than 100 hp during daylight hours, or directly to and from work or school at night.

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#12

Post by Interblog » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:....

3. Only a fraction of LTC students will take even intermediate classes, much less advanced classes;

a. Most think additional training isn't necessary (See No. 7 below);
b. Many are turned off by high pressure sales pitches during LTC classes;
c. Many simply don't have the money for additional training (class fee, ammo)[/list]
....
You are the man who would know best, but this is contrary to my experience. Are there actual data to support the assertion in 3a? The people known to me who are LTC are generally all too aware of their own lack of training and they feel guilty about it because they feel like they have a great deal of responsibility and not much skill to back it up. But like me, they don't feel confident in their ability to find workable training options for themselves.

Also, what is the definition of an "intermediate" class? How would I know a worthwhile class if I saw one? How long should it be, time-wise? What should it cover? What should it leave me with in terms of take-aways that I can then put to use in my own practice sessions?

I agree that the money simply must be a deterrent to many people. The prices I've seen are around $35 - $40 per hour for group training, not for individual instruction. Can anyone recommend any specific content on YouTube, for instance, that would at least instill some practice exercises consistent with "intermediate" training? I wouldn't mind reserving my cash outlays for the training parts that matter most.


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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#13

Post by Tejas59 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:53 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote: ...Most people don't need any training beyond truly basic training...
Chas.
Agreed. I'd also say that if folks are going to spend their limited time and money on additional training they might benefit more from taking a first aid class than a shooting class (although learning to shoot better might be more fun). Truth is, the emergency we might encounter is much more likely to be a car accident, a heart attack, or a kid with a scraped knee than a bad guy trying to hurt us. In a perfect world we would be ready for any of those things...but that ain't gonna happen so it makes sense to prepare for the most likely.

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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#14

Post by oljames3 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:35 pm

Interblog wrote:...
Also, what is the definition of an "intermediate" class? How would I know a worthwhile class if I saw one? How long should it be, time-wise? What should it cover? What should it leave me with in terms of take-aways that I can then put to use in my own practice sessions?

I agree that the money simply must be a deterrent to many people. The prices I've seen are around $35 - $40 per hour for group training, not for individual instruction. Can anyone recommend any specific content on YouTube, for instance, that would at least instill some practice exercises consistent with "intermediate" training? I wouldn't mind reserving my cash outlays for the training parts that matter most.
I can only offer my own philosophy and hope some will find it useful.

Let's start with Active Self Protection. https://activeselfprotection.com/ and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-i64E ... xlLDvWQb3w

John Correia talks about having Attitude, Skills, and a Plan (ASP). His YouTube channel is a great place to go to see narrated videos of self defense incidents that will help you develop a self defense attitude. The late Pual Gomez has several excellent videos still available on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnlR_K ... qrR9Mf9Rig

For skills, I seek out acknowledged experts in the field of study. I drove from Austin to Friendswood to take my father and youngest brother to Charles Cotton's LTC class. I wanted them to learn from the best. My main concern was that they have a good grounding in the law. I took my 21 year old son to Karl Rehn's KRTraining for some initial training and the LTC class. My main concern was that he have a good foundation in shooting skills.

I have taken most of my training from Karl and his instructors. My initial decision was prompted by my reading of John Daub's self defense incident. https://americanhandgunner.com/home-inv ... -incident/ John is a senior instructor at KR Training.

Karl's web site offers many tips and drills for improving your shooting skills. https://krtraining.com/index.html and https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/IPSC.html

John Daub's blog covers shooting issues and topics other than shooting. https://blog.hsoi.com/

My plan includes medical and legal issues. My legal service offers videos, books, and live seminars. This week I attended a three hour session on medical issues of gun fights. It was taught by a former Navy corpsman, having recent combat experience, who is currently an EMT with the San Antonio Fire Department. Last year I took a two day class at KR Training taught by Caleb Causey of Lone Star Medics http://lonestarmedics.com/. It combined instruction on treating penetrating trauma with live shooting. http://lonestarmedics.com/medicine-x-edc/

I encourage those interested in improving their self defense skills to seek out acknowledged experts. There are many in Texas. This may involve travel and expense. I am sure Forum members will gladly share recommendations.

Today I took my father and youngest brother to a local, outdoor range that allows for drawing from the holster. I was free to coach them as they work to improve their skills, without the pressures of working in a tightly supervised, indoor range.

Next month I will take another class at KR Training. https://krtraining.com/KRTraining/Class ... asics.html

Lastly, don't forget about dry-firing. This is a great way to improve your shooting skills with little or no monetary expense.
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Re: Beyond the One Percent: How do we get more people to attend training beyond the state minimum?

#15

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Interblog wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:....

3. Only a fraction of LTC students will take even intermediate classes, much less advanced classes;

a. Most think additional training isn't necessary (See No. 7 below);
b. Many are turned off by high pressure sales pitches during LTC classes;
c. Many simply don't have the money for additional training (class fee, ammo)[/list]
....
You ask some excellent questions. I wish I had equally excellent answers.
Interblog wrote:You are the man who would know best, but this is contrary to my experience. Are there actual data to support the assertion in 3a? The people known to me who are LTC are generally all too aware of their own lack of training and they feel guilty about it because they feel like they have a great deal of responsibility and not much skill to back it up. But like me, they don't feel confident in their ability to find workable training options for themselves.
As I noted in my posts, my comments come solely from my experience as a firearms instructor. There is no comprehensive data regarding LTC students' opinions about their need for additional training. I don't know how that data could realistically be gathered.

I do have some students that comment that they need additional training, but they are the exception. Some of that subset come to my Intermediate I and II classes and some come to the Advanced I and II classes. Overall I'd estimate that less than 10% get additional training. Again, that's my experience with the largest shooting club in Texas (3,600). I'm not saying this holds true industry wide.
Interblog wrote:Also, what is the definition of an "intermediate" class? How would I know a worthwhile class if I saw one? How long should it be, time-wise? What should it cover? What should it leave me with in terms of take-aways that I can then put to use in my own practice sessions?
There is no industry-wide definition of an intermediate class. That's a term I use to refer to classes above the truly basic handgun classes. I teach a Basic Handgun Skills Course that's for people with little to no handgun experience. Sometimes I offer it combined with the LTC class. Intermediate I focuses primarily on safe use of a holster when drawing and engaging one or multiple targets. Intermediate II expands on multiple targets, malfunction drills, shooting on the move (very bad idea) and more, if the class skill level allows.

Again, this is simply my design of intermediate classes. Many instructors, perhaps most, do not break down classes the same way. My goal is to take a students from knowing nothing through advanced skills. That can't be done in one course. Another problem I learned years ago is fatigue is a major obstacle to learning, especially for the stereotypical LTC. That's why I keep my classes relatively short at 3 hrs. With the combined BHS/LTC class, the 3-hr. BHS class goes first, we go to lunch, then we do the LTC classroom portion. (Range qualification is the last drill of the BHS segment.)
Interblog wrote:I agree that the money simply must be a deterrent to many people. The prices I've seen are around $35 - $40 per hour for group training, not for individual instruction. Can anyone recommend any specific content on YouTube, for instance, that would at least instill some practice exercises consistent with "intermediate" training? I wouldn't mind reserving my cash outlays for the training parts that matter most.
Money is the single biggest issue for most folks and it's not just the cost of major schools. It's the rare person who can and will take private lessons or coaching, simply because of the cost. When you tell people how much they need to practice to hone and maintain the skills to which a class exposes them, some are unwilling to shoulder the cost of ammo and range fees. The largest and best schools cost around $3,000 to $4,000 for a class, when all expenses are considered. Depending upon one's location, local instruction may also be available. One of the best values going is my SWAT buddy's full day (300 rd) course for which he charges $150 for PSC Members ($175 non-members). He teaches because he truly wants to help people prepare to defend themselves and family if necessary. Most instructors cannot teach a full day course for that price because of range fees and other expenses. When you combine the cost of training, then regular practice, with the other factors I listed, it's not surprising that a relatively small percentage of people carrying guns opt for advance training. As I noted earlier, experience has shown us that such training isn't necessary in the vast majority of situations.

There is some excellent information available on YouTube, but there are also absolute charlatan spewing crap. Some of them are very well-known names that have people snookered. While you can pick up some good pointers on discrete aspects of shooting, you cannot train overall using YouTube videos.

Some will disagree with this statement, but start shooting IDPA matches on a regular basis. IDPA is a game, it is not training, but it helps you become a better shooter. You will draw from a concealed holster and shoot in unusual/uncomfortable positions. You will practice target identification, use of cover (well, not so much now with the absurd fault lines), accuracy, reloading, and much more. These are skills most commercial (a/k/a square ranges) will not let you practice. Plus, it's a lot of fun, but be careful. If you develop habits that help you win a match, then you will be sacrificing good defensive skills. Shoot the match like you would shoot on the street to save your life.

Some of the best training for self-defense is training the mind. Learn what physiological and psychological responses you can expect when suddenly faced with a life-threatening situation. Read books by Grossman (On Killing and On Combat) and others like The Battle for Hue, We Were Soldiers Once and Young and Black Hawk Down. Get an idea of the mindset required to survive. The goal is not to die from panic or freezing.

One last comment. There is no Zin and the Art of Gun-fighting. It's all applied basis that have been drilled and honed to a point that it comes as natural as breathing. If an instructor tells you he has a magic technique, tip your hat and walk on by.

Chas.
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