Medical accessories

Holsters, sights, magazines, etc.

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B


twomillenium
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1504
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:42 pm
Location: houston area

Re: Medical accessories

#16

Post by twomillenium » Wed May 02, 2018 10:14 am

PriestTheRunner wrote:Yes, we have a good Samaritan law on the books, that covers quite a bit actually. The real problem is either a overly-aggressive prosecution attorney or the eventual civil suit. Some examples of twisted logic they could use to ruse a jury... :
1. If you rendered aid to a guy that you say was trying to kill you, were you really in fear for your life?...
Yes, I was until they went down in a manner that stopped the threat.
PriestTheRunner wrote:2. Did you just render aid to try and fix a mistake you made shooting him?....
It was HIS mistake to threaten my life with HIS actions, I did not make a mistake by defending myself.
PriestTheRunner wrote:3. Are you a medical professional? Your 'aid' caused an infection with that QuickClot gauze you inserted into his body, causing him pain. You owe him for that.
That "aid" saved his life. The pain was caused by HIS poor choice to attack me with actions that threatened my life.
PriestTheRunner wrote:4. If you were afraid for your life, and you rendered aid and he recovered, would you fear for your life and shoot him again?...
Only if HE tried to attack and threaten my life again.
PriestTheRunner wrote:5. If you didn't want him to die, why did you shoot him three times?...
Cuz, it took three times to stop the threat....... or...... I only had three bullets?
PriestTheRunner wrote:6. If you didn't want him to die, why did you shoot him in the head?...
In the extreme fear for my life that HE caused when HE attacked me, my accuracy was off. I was trying to hit center mass to stop the threat.


PriestTheRunner wrote:Hopyfully a wise jury would see through the bull, but things get nasty in the courtroom. No one is your friend in our system. And remember, the jury of your so-called "peers" has been hand selected by the attorneys. They can pick the most liberal, sweetheart, 'all lives matter and are important', imbecilic persons that show up, and you have to work with that jury of 6 (or twelve, depending on civil vs criminal). Though the odds may still be in your favor in a 'good shoot' scenario, are you willing to take those risks?

Personally, I will be calling the ambulance and police, hanging up, checking on my family and holding the threat at gunpoint until law enforcement arrive and control the scene. I would re-conceal when the first LEO car pulls up (just for a bit of added safety). But otherwise, my aid for the guy who was just a lethal threat ends when I hang up the phone calling the ambulance.
I completely agree :iagree:
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to add it to a fruit salad.

You will never know another me, this could be good or not so good, but it is still true.


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Medical accessories

#17

Post by crazy2medic » Wed May 02, 2018 10:28 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:“Hello 911, please send an ambulance and police to my location at the intersection of X and Y streets. Someone has been shot. I’ll be the old guy with the white beard.” Hang up, and don’t answer when they try to call you back. You’ve just rendered all the medical care necessary to cover your butt, and without placing yourself into unnecessary danger by getting too close to the man you just had to shoot BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO KILL YOU!!!!!

If he WASN’T trying to kill you, then why did you shoot him?

When I go to the range, I’ve always got an IFAK with me, which is fairly well supplied. Included is a SOFTT-W tourniquet, and the same Benchmade Lifehook that SRO1911 mentioned. When I travel by car on road trips, I bring a fully stocked medical bag that would allow my wife and I to render aid to multiple patients with traumatic injuries.

I confess that I don’t have my IFAK with me at all times. It’s a little too bulky to keep on my person. I can see the value of carrying a tourniquet and maybe the Lifehook at all times, and this thread is a reminder to start doing that. But carrying more than that on my person - every minute of the day that I am out and about - just isn’t a very convenient proposition for me. I understand that not having either my IFAK or Medical bag with me reduces my ability to self-aid or render aid to someone else, but that’s a risk I am willing to live with. But out on the open road where a multi-car pileup is a possibility, or at the range where there is a distinct possibility of someone getting shot, it’s not a risk I am willing to live with.

IFAK has, in addition to the above mentioned tourniquet and Lifehook,
  • a Russel chest seal,
  • an Oleas modular bandage,
  • a Quickclot combat gauze,
  • 2 Z-Pack dressings,
  • 3 Celox packets, a triangular bandage sling,
  • a pair of trauma scissors,
  • a pair of blue nytril gloves,
  • a dozen alcohol swabs,
  • and an Adsafe CPR pocket resuscitator mask.
The medical bag contains ALL of the above several times over, plus splints in limb and finger sizes, Kerlix gauze bandages, Ace bandages, sutures and forceps sets, scissors, bottles of electrolyte fluids (can be drunk or can be used as IV in an emergency), Zanfel allergy/bug bite treatment, bottled burn gel, gel burn dressings, multiple sizes of airways, extra tourniquets (ALL SOFTT-W), extra CPR resuscitator masks, extra Russell chest seals, extra gloves, alcohol swabs, etc., etc., etc. It all fills a backpack to nearly bursting.

I reckon that a tourniquet and Lifehook would be easy enough to EDC.
Add several pairs of nitrile gloves! I have worked more MVAs, shootings, stabbings, major trauma in my career, you can go thru gloves quickly, when you realize you need something else out of your kit, need to handle something and you need to remove your bloody gloves, this is when you realize you need another pair! When you take off the bloody gloves, carefully peel off one glove, palm it in the hand that still has the glove on, then pull that glove off and over the one you palmed, done carefully you can remove both gloves without exposer to body fluids!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

Bitter Clinger
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1975
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:16 pm
Location: North Dallas

Re: Medical accessories

#18

Post by Bitter Clinger » Wed May 02, 2018 11:20 am

I often carry this kit:
https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/TacMed- ... edical-Kit


And I find this simple diagram to be most helpful:

Image
"You may all go to H3ll, and I will go to Texas." - Davy Crockett
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." - Wyatt Earp
NRA Life Member
לעולם לא תשכח

User avatar

PriestTheRunner
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:33 pm

Re: Medical accessories

#19

Post by PriestTheRunner » Wed May 02, 2018 12:46 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:I often carry this kit:
https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/TacMed- ... edical-Kit


And I find this simple diagram to be most helpful:

Image

Printed and added (later tonight) to add my Trauma Bags! Thanks.

Simple enough to get a person started on the concepts (if its myself they need to help). Also a nice reminder during an adrenaline fueled rush to help somebody. Endorphins are a ... surprise when you're not used to them. :)


Abraham
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 8033
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:43 am

Re: Medical accessories

#20

Post by Abraham » Wed May 02, 2018 2:36 pm

O.K. you had to defend your life by shooting a criminal attacker, then you rendered medical aid to the criminal attacker...then he dies.

Could this genuine attempt to help backfire?

As in his family claiming their loved one would have survived if YOU hadn't killed him with your clumsy medical aid or possibly deliberate attempt to finish him off.

Seems like it could.

I would CALL for medical help, but act like I know what I'm doing as a Paramedic or EMT?

That's a tough call...for me anyway.


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 3441
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Medical accessories

#21

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed May 02, 2018 3:19 pm

Abraham wrote:O.K. you had to defend your life by shooting a criminal attacker, then you rendered medical aid to the criminal attacker...then he dies.

Could this genuine attempt to help backfire?

As in his family claiming their loved one would have survived if YOU hadn't killed him with your clumsy medical aid or possibly deliberate attempt to finish him off.

Seems like it could.

I would CALL for medical help, but act like I know what I'm doing as a Paramedic or EMT?

That's a tough call...for me anyway.
Wouldn't this same legal argument also be true if you came upon a car crash and tried, but failed, to save the victim(s). Good Samaritan laws are specifically intended to protect the well meaning person in these cases, even if that well meaning person actually does more harm than good.

Obviously, the claim of trying to deliberately "finish him off" would only apply in a shooting situation, not a car crash. But then your attorney could point out that you still had bullets in your gun and could have easily "finished him off" much simpler if that was your intent. I'm assuming here that you didn't empty your gun and still have a live BG on your hands. That would be a bit unlikely unless you are using a .22 or you are a really bad shot.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


george
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Medical accessories

#22

Post by george » Wed May 02, 2018 3:51 pm

I always carry a large BandAide in my wallet. Does that count?
... holding His hand.
NRA endowment member
TSRA life member

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 23852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Medical accessories

#23

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu May 03, 2018 6:56 am

crazy2medic wrote:Add several pairs of nitrile gloves! I have worked more MVAs, shootings, stabbings, major trauma in my career, you can go thru gloves quickly, when you realize you need something else out of your kit, need to handle something and you need to remove your bloody gloves, this is when you realize you need another pair! When you take off the bloody gloves, carefully peel off one glove, palm it in the hand that still has the glove on, then pull that glove off and over the one you palmed, done carefully you can remove both gloves without exposer to body fluids!
I must have forgotten to mention it, but my big medical bag does have multiple pairs of gloves.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


Rob72
Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am
Location: Gulf Coast

Re: Medical accessories

#24

Post by Rob72 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:32 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Rob72 wrote:
Odinvalknir wrote:
2. Do you think it is logical to proceed to give medical first aid to someone whom you have just use your weapon against?
The moment you touch the person whom you have shot, your legal position changes. It will be your burden to prove that their demise was not the result of your malfeasance or incompetence. The DA might take a pass on the question, a civil attorney, regardless of the justifiability of the shoot, has grounds to bring a suit because of the malpractice/malfeasance question. Render aid = call 911.

I have a small personal pack, and a more complete kit in the vehicle.
Do we have a good samaritan law in Texas protects us from liability if we are attempting to render aid to those in need (crash victims, etc)? If we do that would seem to also cover this situation. If we don't, then that would probably impact my decision on rendering aid in all situations, to be honest.
I would suggest talking to a good Criminal Defense and/or Medical Malpractice attorney.

Here's the problem: 1) You decided that lethal force was required. 2)You are now performing actions that may directly stop a terminal process (bleed-out, hemo-/pneumothorax, etc..), OR MAY ACCELERATE THE TERMINAL PROCESS.

If you've taken a class dealing with trauma care, in the context of a shooting incident, it is definitely debatable whether you are a "Good Samaritan", as defined by law, or a Reasonably Competent Individual(legal terms & definitions will vary). The difference is that a RCI is accountable for their actions because of training/preparation, to act within the presented circumstances.

Short version: you may be a Good Samaritan if you, as a bystander/witness to a shooting act to preserve life & limb of an injured party.

If you have taken a Stop The Bleed class, or similar, and have been directly involved in the shooting you are probably both a RCI and a "participant", meaning that you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that(i.e.) you DIDN'T want Tommy Thugaroo dead so badly that you didn't cover his wound with a bandage, but didn't actually apply sufficient pressure to stop exsanguination.

If you have no professional training, or training related to trauma care for civvies, you are an involved party to a shooting, and the person you shot expires while you are pushing/pressing/torquing on them, civilly you still have to be able to prove that your actions didn't make the situation worse; criminally, you may be practicing medicine without a license.

Just call 911. Life will be bad enough, just dealing with "regular" consequences of shooting someone.


Rob72
Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am
Location: Gulf Coast

Re: Medical accessories

#25

Post by Rob72 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:48 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wouldn't this same legal argument also be true if you came upon a car crash and tried, but failed, to save the victim(s). Good Samaritan laws are specifically intended to protect the well meaning person in these cases, even if that well meaning person actually does more harm than good.

Obviously, the claim of trying to deliberately "finish him off" would only apply in a shooting situation, not a car crash. But then your attorney could point out that you still had bullets in your gun and could have easily "finished him off" much simpler if that was your intent. I'm assuming here that you didn't empty your gun and still have a live BG on your hands. That would be a bit unlikely unless you are using a .22 or you are a really bad shot.
Your attorney can make quite a few arguments, but it won't change the fact that to most reasonable people, you have a vested interest.

In a car accident (MVA), you may have "heart interest", i.e., you genuinely want to help these people survive a traumatic event, but it will not financially, or in any other specific manner, benefit or cost you in any way.

Regardless of what you, or your attorney, says, there is quite a bit of truth in, "one story, end of story." IOW, my chances of life continuing outside of prison, crushing legal debt, and years in court, dramatically increase if the person I shot isn't showing up in a wheelchair, with his distressed momma, Awwntie, and brood of offspring, wailing about what a burden it is that this fine upstanding church-going, recovering addict, Daddy is no longer able to work part time at Dollar Tree.



Not meaning to drag this soooo far OT, but this is a serious topic, and I'm both licensed and have several years of pre-hospital experience in a fairly violent metropolitan environment.

Regarding the idea that "pain and suffering" are a result of the actions of the person you shot, that's very iffy. Legally, if you did not "stop the threat"(i.e. Tommy isn't dead), either your training and competence were inadequate, or you felt the threat was stopped. It's either-or. The option of stating that you were, "so rattled that my aim was off," is the poorest of a set of bad options, regarding what to say.

I carry a pretty complete kit, but it's very much a limited use piece of gear. I carry a larger, multi-use bag to church, or select social gatherings.

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Medical accessories

#26

Post by oljames3 » Thu May 03, 2018 12:02 pm

O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Medical accessories

#27

Post by crazy2medic » Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
crazy2medic wrote:Add several pairs of nitrile gloves! I have worked more MVAs, shootings, stabbings, major trauma in my career, you can go thru gloves quickly, when you realize you need something else out of your kit, need to handle something and you need to remove your bloody gloves, this is when you realize you need another pair! When you take off the bloody gloves, carefully peel off one glove, palm it in the hand that still has the glove on, then pull that glove off and over the one you palmed, done carefully you can remove both gloves without exposer to body fluids!
I must have forgotten to mention it, but my big medical bag does have multiple pairs of gloves.
:thumbs2:
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

Jago668
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 12:31 am

Re: Medical accessories

#28

Post by Jago668 » Sat May 05, 2018 8:09 pm

I carry 2 ankle first aid kits (afak) made by Ryker Nylon. Each has 1 israeli bandage (4"), 1 CAT, 1 Quickclot Gauze, 2 HALO chest seals.

Car has a booboo kit from Walmart. Also have a trauma bag with 2 SOFTT-W tourniquets, 2 HALO chest seals, 6ish rolls krinkle gauze, 2 israeli bandage (6"), 2 olaes bandages, some butterfly sutures, 2 bottles of saline solution, 2 ace wraps, roll of paper tape, 2 quickclot gauze, nitrile gloves, leather gloves, leatherman, resqme tool, 2 flashlights, 4 packs lightsticks, cpr mask.
NRA Benefactor Member


Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 3441
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Medical accessories

#29

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:23 pm

It seems like the consensus is that you would be in a better position legally if you just let the BG bleed out instead of actively trying to save his life. I guess it might just come down to other non-legal considerations in that case (based on your personal ethics, and situational issues as to whether there is still a perceived threat, etc). This seems similar to the analysis of whether to get involved in the defense of others. Legally safer to do nothing in most cases, but a person's ethics may lead them to a different answer.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


Rob72
Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am
Location: Gulf Coast

Re: Medical accessories

#30

Post by Rob72 » Thu May 17, 2018 12:02 pm

I believe there's a difference in perception, working within the law, between having done it, and imagining a hypothetical "what if."

If you carry a kit, Good Samaritan covers you, if you are a bystander.

If you have documented training, are an active participant in a shooting, decide that the scene is safe, AND decide to intervene, just be sure that what you do is within your scope of training.

I may be reading some posts with the bias of having followed the efforts of Randy Rescue, and having seen the effects (physical and legal) of extremely well-meaning, but painfully ill-considered actions.

I will summarize by suggesting that if you believe you may have the call to render aid to someone who is not definitively "the victim" at a shooting scene, seek out advanced trauma training, and develop the skills to verbalize why you act in a given way. The inability to verbalize your decision-making process will sink your boat.

Be safe!

Post Reply

Return to “Holsters & Accessories”