MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

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philip964
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MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#1

Post by philip964 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 am

http://www.startribune.com/rochester-mu ... 470306113/

Its hard to find all the facts in this self defense murder trial in one news article. There was a mistrial from a hung jury recently, so the self defense shooter has a chance of getting off.

In Minnesota you have a duty to retreat. The DA apparently decided to pursue murder charges when he saw the bumper sticker on the shooters car that said "Gun Control is hitting your target". The self defense shooter has a CHL.

This also has religious overtones as the dead man is Muslim the shooter is Christian.

Our self defense shooter was on his way to officiate at a sporting event, when the self defense shooter stopped to see if everyone was ok after witnessing a car accident. The driver of the car in the accident then put the car in reverse and backed into the referee's car. The driver was apparently high on drugs. He and another man said they were going to to "jump" the referee and get his gun. He said he shot in self defense, but did not retreat. He called 911 and waited for the police to arrive.


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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#2

Post by Tex1961 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:24 am

I read that article last night as a matter of fact...

I see a lot of neat t-shirts, etc. that on first impulse I would like to buy.. But it's stories like these that have always made me hesitate.... Example, I would never wear a shirt that says "S&W, I never leave home without it" or something like that, that would identify me as carrying a gun... Nor do I want to advertise that I would rather shoot first ask questions later.... I know it shouldn't be this way, but it's the climate we live in.... My path is better served by introducing and instructing new converts.... Both old and young to the joys of gun ownership and self protection...

I sometimes get custom orders for AR-15 stickers and magazine stickers that are pretty eyebrow raising. Fowl language, suggestive images, etc... I't not my job to judge what others want to adorn their car / body / firearms with.. But I do have to shake my head sometimes.....
Mike Troncalli
Owner and operator of Tejas Products "Manufacturer of firearm related accessories and custom laser engraving"
and Certified gun nut. :txflag:

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#3

Post by montgomery » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:40 am

philip964 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 am
http://www.startribune.com/rochester-mu ... 470306113/

Its hard to find all the facts in this self defense murder trial in one news article. There was a mistrial from a hung jury recently, so the self defense shooter has a chance of getting off.

In Minnesota you have a duty to retreat. The DA apparently decided to pursue murder charges when he saw the bumper sticker on the shooters car that said "Gun Control is hitting your target". The self defense shooter has a CHL.

This also has religious overtones as the dead man is Muslim the shooter is Christian.

Our self defense shooter was on his way to officiate at a sporting event, when the self defense shooter stopped to see if everyone was ok after witnessing a car accident. The driver of the car in the accident then put the car in reverse and backed into the referee's car. The driver was apparently high on drugs. He and another man said they were going to to "jump" the referee and get his gun. He said he shot in self defense, but did not retreat. He called 911 and waited for the police to arrive.
Like Massad Ayoob teaches in his Armed Citizen Rules of Engagement: dump the machismo, and be sure you can articulate why you did what you did.

That bumper sticker may cost this guy his freedom - and it most certainly cost him $250,000 in lawyer and expert witness fees to explain to the jury it does not imply intent.

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#4

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:55 am

montgomery wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:40 am
philip964 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 am
http://www.startribune.com/rochester-mu ... 470306113/

Its hard to find all the facts in this self defense murder trial in one news article. There was a mistrial from a hung jury recently, so the self defense shooter has a chance of getting off.

In Minnesota you have a duty to retreat. The DA apparently decided to pursue murder charges when he saw the bumper sticker on the shooters car that said "Gun Control is hitting your target". The self defense shooter has a CHL.

This also has religious overtones as the dead man is Muslim the shooter is Christian.

Our self defense shooter was on his way to officiate at a sporting event, when the self defense shooter stopped to see if everyone was ok after witnessing a car accident. The driver of the car in the accident then put the car in reverse and backed into the referee's car. The driver was apparently high on drugs. He and another man said they were going to to "jump" the referee and get his gun. He said he shot in self defense, but did not retreat. He called 911 and waited for the police to arrive.
Like Massad Ayoob teaches in his Armed Citizen Rules of Engagement: dump the machismo, and be sure you can articulate why you did what you did.

That bumper sticker may cost this guy his freedom - and it most certainly cost him $250,000 in lawyer and expert witness fees to explain to the jury it does not imply intent.
In this day of internet communication, I would even be careful of what I posted. Both on forums and on social media. Then you have those really cool signs people put on the gate or front door warning of the owner shooting you. You may prevail in the end but the cost can wipe you out.


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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#5

Post by montgomery » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:11 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:55 am
montgomery wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:40 am
philip964 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 am
http://www.startribune.com/rochester-mu ... 470306113/

Its hard to find all the facts in this self defense murder trial in one news article. There was a mistrial from a hung jury recently, so the self defense shooter has a chance of getting off.

In Minnesota you have a duty to retreat. The DA apparently decided to pursue murder charges when he saw the bumper sticker on the shooters car that said "Gun Control is hitting your target". The self defense shooter has a CHL.

This also has religious overtones as the dead man is Muslim the shooter is Christian.

Our self defense shooter was on his way to officiate at a sporting event, when the self defense shooter stopped to see if everyone was ok after witnessing a car accident. The driver of the car in the accident then put the car in reverse and backed into the referee's car. The driver was apparently high on drugs. He and another man said they were going to to "jump" the referee and get his gun. He said he shot in self defense, but did not retreat. He called 911 and waited for the police to arrive.
Like Massad Ayoob teaches in his Armed Citizen Rules of Engagement: dump the machismo, and be sure you can articulate why you did what you did.

That bumper sticker may cost this guy his freedom - and it most certainly cost him $250,000 in lawyer and expert witness fees to explain to the jury it does not imply intent.
In this day of internet communication, I would even be careful of what I posted. Both on forums and on social media. Then you have those really cool signs people put on the gate or front door warning of the owner shooting you. You may prevail in the end but the cost can wipe you out.
:iagree: completely. #truth


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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#6

Post by K.Mooneyham » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:31 am

All of this really boils down to one thing: "the state" (political entity) really does NOT like an individual being able to defend his or her self. That collectivist mindset wants you to be dependent upon "the state" for your existence because that will garner them more power. The more collectivist the government, the more they hate the individual (elites, especially those of the political structure exempted, of course).

“All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.” --- Lord Acton

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#7

Post by Liberty » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:45 am

philip964 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 am
http://www.startribune.com/rochester-mu ... 470306113/

Its hard to find all the facts in this self defense murder trial in one news article. There was a mistrial from a hung jury recently, so the self defense shooter has a chance of getting off.

In Minnesota you have a duty to retreat. The DA apparently decided to pursue murder charges when he saw the bumper sticker on the shooters car that said "Gun Control is hitting your target". The self defense shooter has a CHL.
Is that Bumper sticker any more controversial than an NRA sticker, It is promoting the same values.
The Bumper sticker doesn't suggest anything more than a political sentiment and a respect for marksmanship. The DA is obviously persecuting this guy over his political beliefs, which have little to do with the crime that he is being prosecuted for. He is not being charged with unlawful possession. If the DA has actually made statements that this is why he is pursuing murder charges, It would seem that this should be cause enough to have the case dropped. I don't see this as any different than prosecuting someone for a Bernie or MAG bumper sticker. Politically correct political prosecution Communist Red China style.
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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#8

Post by Jusme » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:50 am

This is one of the reasons, I don't have anything on my car, clothing, or house that extolls the virtues of gun ownership. The other, is that I don't want to give criminals a potential theft target. I am a proud NRA member, but I don't display any of the logos, I don't have come and take it stickers, on my truck, or anywhere else viewable by the general public. But I never have been one to broadcast my views through bumper stickers, no matter the subject. My thoughts, feelings, and opinions, are my private business, and I do not feel the need to use my vehicle as a way to express them. I also do not decorate my guns, or knives, with skull, or witty words, that might, look bad, to a jury, if I ever have to defend myself, and that is held up as exhibit A.
That being said, if all prosecution in this country, was based on bumper stickers, how quickly can we expect to descend into chaos?
The Minnesota legislature, has decided, people cannot defend themselves in public. They made that decision, by not enacting Stand Your Ground laws, or by repealing, the duty to retreat. No left wing group, including the ACLU, would defend this guy, because they believe people should submit to being victims, and therefore reliant upon the government to protect them. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#9

Post by Flightmare » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 pm

I have NRA stickers that I have been sent when I joined or upgraded my membership level. I post these on my gun cabinet or ammo crates.

There are no stickers on my vehicle at all. I hate putting stickers on my vehicles because I think eventually I'd have to deal with removal. But like others, I do not wish to make my vehicle a target for break ins for would-be thieves thinking there is something nice inside.

I have 2 magnets on my truck though. One is for skywarn, the other is a thin blue line flag that says "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

None of my firearms have any cosmetic modifications. I changed the grip on my Beretta M9.

I do have several firearm related shirts. 2 of them are NRA shirts. I am selective of where I wear them though, just as I am selective of where I wear certain political apparel. I have no problem and enjoy wearing 2A shirts to the different breakfasts in the DFW area. I've also worn them when I went to the NRA convention last year and this year. I will wear the shirts when I go to the local gun range. In any of those situations, it's no secret what I'm doing there. And on occasion, it HAS presented me with an opportunity to engage someone who is curious about carrying.
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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#10

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:42 pm

My gun-related stickers are for the front of my gun safe. I only have two stickers on my car: a small one on my bumper with the name of unchurched on it; and one on my rear window that says "no step on snek".

Image
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I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#11

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:54 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:42 pm
My gun-related stickers are for the front of my gun safe. I only have two stickers on my car: a small one on my bumper with the name of unchurched on it; and one on my rear window that says "no step on snek".
given the size of the pit viper population in Texas, you can always claim that sticker is solely promoting outdoor safety. Or even ethical treatment of animals. :biggrinjester:
(of course, WE know what it means)
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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#12

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:07 pm

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:54 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:42 pm
My gun-related stickers are for the front of my gun safe. I only have two stickers on my car: a small one on my bumper with the name of unchurched on it; and one on my rear window that says "no step on snek".
given the size of the pit viper population in Texas, you can always claim that sticker is solely promoting outdoor safety. Or even ethical treatment of animals. :biggrinjester:
(of course, WE know what it means)
Exactly! :mrgreen:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#13

Post by Keith B » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:06 am

Our forum Admin has a very good mantra on this: 'Don't let your mouth ruin a good shoot.' That can happen after OR before you have an incident.

I teach my students that perception is as much an issue as intent when it comes down to the review of your self defense shooting. If you are perceived to have been looking for a fight before (or after) the occurrence, then it plays into the Police, DA, Grand Jury, Jury and Judges view of you. That applies to these 'Shoot them all, let God sort them out', 'Anyone found here at night will be found here in the morning', signs, stickers, etc. Comments on Social Media, in public forums (like here), and even just in conversations at parties or in public can and WILL be used against you by a vindictive anti-gun Prosecutor or the shoo-tee's Defense Attorney in court. It is not only your comments or display of perceived aggression, but by what and how you act when you carry. Many firearms and accessory companies don't do us favors by putting out products that promote a negative view of our intent. Ammo names like 'Zombie Max', DRT (Dead right There), etc may be great for marketing to young wanna-be's, but will be looked at in a negative light when a Grand Jury reviews your use of them during a self-defense shooting. Even those grips or holster with a skull and crossbones for your 1911 can shed a negative light on your mindset and intent. I see a lot of Marvel's 'The Punisher's'/Seal Team Six's skull logo on gun cases, grips etc these days, and that is negative IMO.

Image

Bottom line, be humble with your reason for carrying, even leaning toward a meek and timid persona. When it comes down to brass tacks, you will more likely be seen the victim than the guy/gal who was a vigilante wanna-be just looking to go out and find trouble.
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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#14

Post by joe817 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:25 am

Keith B wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:06 am
Our forum Admin has a very good mantra on this: 'Don't let your mouth ruin a good shoot.' That can happen after OR before you have an incident.

I teach my students that perception is as much an issue as intent when it comes down to the review of your self defense shooting. If you are perceived to have been looking for a fight before (or after) the occurrence, then it plays into the Police, DA, Grand Jury, Jury and Judges view of you. That applies to these 'Shoot them all, let God sort them out', 'Anyone found here at night will be found here in the morning', signs, stickers, etc. Comments on Social Media, in public forums (like here), and even just in conversations at parties or in public can and WILL be used against you by a vindictive anti-gun Prosecutor or the shoo-tee's Defense Attorney in court. It is not only your comments or display of perceived aggression, but by what and how you act when you carry. Many firearms and accessory companies don't do us favors by putting out products that promote a negative view of our intent. Ammo names like 'Zombie Max', DRT (Dead right There), etc may be great for marketing to young wanna-be's, but will be looked at in a negative light when a Grand Jury reviews your use of them during a self-defense shooting. Even those grips or holster with a skull and crossbones for your 1911 can shed a negative light on your mindset and intent. I see a lot of Marvel's 'The Punisher's'/Seal Team Six's skull logo on gun cases, grips etc these days, and that is negative IMO.

Image

Bottom line, be humble with your reason for carrying, even leaning toward a meek and timid persona. When it comes down to brass tacks, you will more likely be seen the victim than the guy/gal who was a vigilante wanna-be just looking to go out and find trouble.
Well put Keith! And Amen to all you say! :thumbs2:
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Re: MN: Self defense shooting trial built on gun control bumper sticker

#15

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:40 am

Keith B wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:06 am
Our forum Admin has a very good mantra on this: 'Don't let your mouth ruin a good shoot.' That can happen after OR before you have an incident.

I teach my students that perception is as much an issue as intent when it comes down to the review of your self defense shooting. If you are perceived to have been looking for a fight before (or after) the occurrence, then it plays into the Police, DA, Grand Jury, Jury and Judges view of you. That applies to these 'Shoot them all, let God sort them out', 'Anyone found here at night will be found here in the morning', signs, stickers, etc. Comments on Social Media, in public forums (like here), and even just in conversations at parties or in public can and WILL be used against you by a vindictive anti-gun Prosecutor or the shoo-tee's Defense Attorney in court. It is not only your comments or display of perceived aggression, but by what and how you act when you carry. Many firearms and accessory companies don't do us favors by putting out products that promote a negative view of our intent. Ammo names like 'Zombie Max', DRT (Dead right There), etc may be great for marketing to young wanna-be's, but will be looked at in a negative light when a Grand Jury reviews your use of them during a self-defense shooting. Even those grips or holster with a skull and crossbones for your 1911 can shed a negative light on your mindset and intent. I see a lot of Marvel's 'The Punisher's'/Seal Team Six's skull logo on gun cases, grips etc these days, and that is negative IMO.

Image

Bottom line, be humble with your reason for carrying, even leaning toward a meek and timid persona. When it comes down to brass tacks, you will more likely be seen the victim than the guy/gal who was a vigilante wanna-be just looking to go out and find trouble.
I was "window shopping" on eBay just yesterday for hats with the Kryptek patterns on them, and a large number of them had that punisher logo on them. I moved on, and I’ll buy elsewhere. I generally avoid this kind of stuff. And in this political climate, it’s not just the "get some" kind of stickers, patches, logos anymore. I’m a supporter and long time life member (endowment life member now) of the NRA, but I don’t wear NRA logo clothing or put the NRA stickers on my vehicle. I’m not ashamed of my NRA membership, and I’m quite happy to defend the NRA in online or face to face discussions, but I’m not interested in having some AntiFa type key my car or assault me because I had an NRA logo on something. And while there’s always the danger of having one's car broken into by someone looking for guns, I think that vandalism and assault are more likely and common concerns, as the left becomes further and further unhinged.

And it is exactly for reasons like this that I think we are ultimately headed for some kind of violent showdown between the left and everyone else. They no longer know when to back off, and they lack the moral filters necessary to coexistence. We’re going to end up in an existential fight for our most fundamental rights, and literal self-preservation.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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