Specific gunbuster sign?

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Ruark
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Specific gunbuster sign?

#1

Post by Ruark » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:23 pm

I was just wondering, assuming 1911 passes, does ANY kind of "no guns" sign preclude unlicensed carry, or does it specifically need to be a red-slash gunbuster sign? I'm not sure that any size and visibility requirements will be in place for that purpose. Some business might have a tiny little "no guns" sign stuck somewhere where nobody will see it, or maybe near just one entrance, etc. Would that be enforceable? Again, this is going to be a mess.
-Ruark

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Lambda Force
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#2

Post by Lambda Force » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:48 pm

If I understand the committee substitute, unlicenced carry past a handgunbuster sign will be like carrying a pack of cigarettes past a tobaccobuster sign.
Tyranny is identified by what is legal for government employees but illegal for the citizenry.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#3

Post by ScottDLS » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:32 pm

Lambda Force wrote:If I understand the committee substitute, unlicenced carry past a handgunbuster sign will be like carrying a pack of cigarettes past a tobaccobuster sign.
Except a pack of cigs past a "tobacco buster" sign is a Class B, where handgun will be a class C. All that assuming the 21 year old DM-343 opinion is interpreted that way by the courts. :rules:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Lambda Force
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#4

Post by Lambda Force » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:04 pm

Thanks for the correction. Until the bill is final, maybe I should ponder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, compared to the number of pinheads Straus put on his calendars committee.
Tyranny is identified by what is legal for government employees but illegal for the citizenry.


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Ruark
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#5

Post by Ruark » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:33 pm

Lambda Force wrote:If I understand the committee substitute, unlicenced carry past a handgunbuster sign will be like carrying a pack of cigarettes past a tobaccobuster sign.
That wasn't my question.
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Lambda Force
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#6

Post by Lambda Force » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:59 pm

Ruark wrote:That wasn't my question.
That's good because as Scott said, my answer was inaccurate.

I think this may be the closest we have to guidance.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/op ... dm0363.pdf
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#7

Post by ScottDLS » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:08 pm

Since there's no specification for a sign in 30.05 it will be up to the court to determine whether you received notice that your entry was prohibited. Purple paint marks or a sign saying entry is prohibited would probably do it. Maybe a one cm sticker with a pictogram of a revolver with a line through it. Maybe not.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#8

Post by TexasJohnBoy » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:59 am

Go Google Image Search for "firearms prohibited sign"

There's no reason that any of those would NOT be notice to unlicensed carriers, except proper 30.06 and 30.07 signs of course. Those only apply to permit holders (unless interpreted otherwise by a court if HB1911 passes).

I won't be a test case. I'll keep my license, thank you very much.
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ScottDLS
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#9

Post by ScottDLS » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:54 am

TexasJohnBoy wrote:Go Google Image Search for "firearms prohibited sign"

There's no reason that any of those would NOT be notice to unlicensed carriers, except proper 30.06 and 30.07 signs of course. Those only apply to permit holders (unless interpreted otherwise by a court if HB1911 passes).

I won't be a test case. I'll keep my license, thank you very much.
One reason they might not be notice is that many of the signs commercially available don't really make it clear that your entry is prohibited as 30.05 requires. Especially when they are contradicted by other signs, such as OPEN or WELCOME or COME IN TO SEE OUR BARGAINS. Also many are not posted where they are likely to come to the attention of intruders...

With a Class C on the line, I am willing to be the test case in the very unlikely event that I am discovered concealed carrying.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#10

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon May 01, 2017 4:40 pm

TexasJohnBoy wrote:Go Google Image Search for "firearms prohibited sign"

There's no reason that any of those would NOT be notice to unlicensed carriers, except proper 30.06 and 30.07 signs of course. Those only apply to permit holders (unless interpreted otherwise by a court if HB1911 passes).

I won't be a test case. I'll keep my license, thank you very much.
If you have a license, then a gun buster sign will not impact your ability to legally carry in a location.

To the OP, assuming you do not have an LTC, then it depends entirely on what a prosecutor, judge, and jury decide. Guess wrong, and you could be facing a potential $200 fine. Here are the things that would have to happen for that outcome to occur:

1. A store employee notices that you are carrying a weapon.

2. The store employee decides that the best course of action would be to call the police as opposed to talking to you. Note that they will be calling the cops for a lot of legally carrying LTC holders if they go this route.

3. You are there when the cops arrive (maybe this is a restaurant instead of a store)?

4. The responding officer decides to issue you a citation instead of a warning.

5. The prosecutor decides that it is worthwhile to pursue a Class C misdemeanor in court.

6. A jury agrees that a reasonable person would understand that the sign in question bans the type of weapon you were carrying, and that it is positioned such that it is "likely to come to the attention of an intruder".

If every one of these things happens, you are out $200 and a couple hours in court. If any of them does not happen you are out $0.
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#11

Post by Liberty » Mon May 01, 2017 5:28 pm

Maybe not a real court but a justice of the peace or municple court or otherwise known as kangaroo court. Especially without a lawyer. Could cost more than $200 even if you win.
Isn't there the fine plus court fees, pluss some kind of victim fund?
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#12

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:35 pm

Liberty wrote:Maybe not a real court but a justice of the peace or municple court or otherwise known as kangaroo court. Especially without a lawyer. Could cost more than $200 even if you win.
Isn't there the fine plus court fees, pluss some kind of victim fund?
I think that most folks facing a potential class C misdemeanor charge would not hire a lawyer. Not sure why you would have to pay court costs if you lose. I know that I have lost similar types of cases (in traffic court), and have not had to pay any court costs. I'm assuming you are joking about the "victim fund".
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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#13

Post by justiceburger » Mon May 01, 2017 6:31 pm

There is more to consider than just the legal cost. For instance my employer requires notification of "arrest or issuance of a citation" for anything other than minor traffic offenses within 10 days otherwise when they find out it is no questions asked termination.

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Re: Specific gunbuster sign?

#14

Post by jmorris » Tue May 02, 2017 12:24 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Liberty wrote:Maybe not a real court but a justice of the peace or municple court or otherwise known as kangaroo court. Especially without a lawyer. Could cost more than $200 even if you win.
Isn't there the fine plus court fees, pluss some kind of victim fund?
I think that most folks facing a potential class C misdemeanor charge would not hire a lawyer. Not sure why you would have to pay court costs if you lose. I know that I have lost similar types of cases (in traffic court), and have not had to pay any court costs. I'm assuming you are joking about the "victim fund".
From the San Antonio fines and court costs sites.

GENERAL INFORMATION

The amount of fine the court assesses is determined only by the facts and circumstances of the case. The maximum fine for most municipal court traffic violations is $200; for penal violations —$500; for certain city ordinance violations—$2000; and for other city ordinance violations —$500.

In addition to the fine, court costs mandated by law will also be charged. These charges vary according to the kind of violation. Court costs are assessed if you plead nolo contendere, or if your case is deferred for defensive driving or probation.
Jay E Morris
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