Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

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Vol Texan
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Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#1

Post by Vol Texan »

I periodically take the time to read through the statutes bit by bit each year, just to make sure I'm quoting scripture and verse in my LTC courses. But I'm no lawyer, so when I ran across these bits on this year's re-read, I decided I needed a bit more clarification.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs/pe/htm/pe.46.htm

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY

(m) It is a defense to prosecution under Section 46.03 that the actor:
  1. carries a handgun on a premises or other property on which the carrying of a weapon is prohibited under that section;
  2. personally received from the owner of the property, or from another person with apparent authority to act for the owner, notice that carrying a firearm or other weapon on the premises or other property, as applicable, was prohibited; and
  3. promptly departed from the premises or other property.
Question 1: Does paragraph (3) give a "defense to prosecution" mulligan to the 46.03 places if you leave when told - analogous to the one offered under 30.06(g) - and does it apply to both licensed and unlicensed carry?

Question 2: Why are there two paragraph (m)s listed on this page?


Then we see this:

(n) The defense provided by Subsection (m) does not apply if:
  1. a sign described by Subsection (o) was posted prominently at each entrance to the premises or other property, as applicable; or
  2. at the time of the offense, the actor knew that carrying a firearm or other weapon on the premises or other property was prohibited.
And here's the Subsection (o) mentioned in (n) above:

(o) A person may provide notice that firearms and other weapons are prohibited under Section 46.03 on the premises or other property, as applicable, by posting a sign at each entrance to the premises or other property that:
  1. includes language that is identical to or substantially similar to the following: "Pursuant to Section 46.03, Penal Code (places weapons prohibited), a person may not carry a firearm or other weapon on this property";
  2. includes the language described by Subdivision (1) in both English and Spanish;
  3. appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
  4. is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
Question 3: So, they 46.03 location MAY post a 46.03 sign, but if they do not, that further supports the 'defense to prosecution mulligan' in question 1 above?

(q) Section 46.03(a)(8) does not apply if the actor:
  1. carries a handgun on a premises where a collegiate sporting event is taking place;
  2. holds a license to carry a handgun issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
  3. was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07 of this code, as applicable.

Question 4: I know that locations posted with 30.06 on college campuses are barred from carry, but I thought that college sports were barred even without the 30.06 posting, per 46.03(8). Am I mistaken here? Do they also need to post 30.06 to bar the college football games?
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#2

Post by wheelgun1958 »

I recently came across a hospital that had a 46.03 sign on top of and obscuring the 30.06 sign. I didn't want to be a test case.

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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#3

Post by Tex1961 »

wheelgun1958 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:11 pm I recently came across a hospital that had a 46.03 sign on top of and obscuring the 30.06 sign. I didn't want to be a test case.
That makes sense under 46.03 (11)
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#4

Post by oljames3 »

I am recovering from heart bypass surgery and, sadly, lack the energy to reply directly to your questions. These are likely best answered by a qualified Texas attorney.

Attorney Andrew Branca says "Carry a gun so you're hard to kill, know the law so you're hard to convict." https://lawofselfdefense.com/ I also advise students to know the law so they can stay well within the boundaries of the law.

In the law in general, there are terms of legal art that are not English. Yes, the statute is written using English words and phrasing, but the statute is written in Lawyer, not English. I like to remind students that, while it is important to read the statute, we do not really know what the statute means until someone is arrested, convicted, and appeals the conviction. The resulting decision by the appeals court creates case law. And then there are jury instructions which attempt to state the law in plain English. However, the judge will decide which jury instructions the jury will receive, usually in consultation with the prosecution and the defense.

One of the legal terms of art in Texas law is "defense to prosecution." This phrase can vary in meaning depending on the jurisdiction. What it is NOT is a Mulligan. "Defense to prosecution" does not prevent arrest or prosecution. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs/PE/htm/PE.2.htm
Texas Penal Code Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."

(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense.

(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.

(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

(e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly labeled in accordance with this chapter has the procedural and evidentiary consequences of a defense.
A good way to get an understanding of Texas law is to discuss it with Texas lawyers. I have discussed this at length with Texas lawyers in my legal services program. They have a new YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/c/ArmedAttorneys

A good way to get an understanding of self defense law in general is Branca's Law of Self Defense. https://lawofselfdefense.com/shop-losd/ Another is Massad Ayoob's MAG20 Lecture. https://massadayoobgroup.com/ I've taken both of these and can recommend them highly.

I'm going back to resting, now.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#5

Post by wheelgun1958 »

Tex1961 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:22 pm
wheelgun1958 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:11 pm I recently came across a hospital that had a 46.03 sign on top of and obscuring the 30.06 sign. I didn't want to be a test case.
That makes sense under 46.03 (11)
Pursuant to 46.035(i) the 30.06 sign must be visible and legible, which it is not if is obscured.

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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#6

Post by srothstein »

The way I read that section of law, it is a clumsily worded attempt to say that prohibited locations must be posted or the person must be told and then not depart before charge can be filed. When I read the actual bill, section m, n, o, and p were all added at one time and in one specific section of the bill. Reading them all at once as one bill makes it more understandable to me. That way it says you cannot be charged if you leave when told, except that signs are considered to have told you this, and the sign is the new 46.03 sign. In the specific case of an LTC at a collegiate sporting event, the sign is either the 30.06 or 30.07 sign.

While at first glance, the last part would appear to make it possible to only be prohibited for open or concealed carry for an LTC depending on the sign, remember that the clause it applies to is the location being prohibited if EITHER sign is posted. It is not if the sign is enforceable (which is a stupid way to implement this idea), but if the location itself is prohibited. To possibly make that more understandable, it means you will be charged with violating 46.03 and not 30.06 or 30.07 if they have either sign.

And the answer to why they have two different sections named m, there were two bills passed and signed by the governor. Each bill added a new section m. This actually happens a lot and one of the first bills passed each legislative session is a cleanup bill which goes through the code looking for this and renumbers everything to eliminate duplicate section letters and improper cross references.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#7

Post by Tex1961 »

wheelgun1958 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:28 pm
Tex1961 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:22 pm
wheelgun1958 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:11 pm I recently came across a hospital that had a 46.03 sign on top of and obscuring the 30.06 sign. I didn't want to be a test case.
That makes sense under 46.03 (11)
Pursuant to 46.035(i) the 30.06 sign must be visible and legible, which it is not if is obscured.
Wow, good catch. :thumbs2:
As others who have posted on this thread have eluded to, the laws are not written in common tongue but in lawyer speak. So many are in seemingly conflicted language that it would take a court case to clarify.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#8

Post by howdy »

srothstein wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:18 pm The way I read that section of law, it is a clumsily worded attempt to say that prohibited locations must be posted or the person must be told and then not depart before charge can be filed. When I read the actual bill, section m, n, o, and p were all added at one time and in one specific section of the bill. Reading them all at once as one bill makes it more understandable to me. That way it says you cannot be charged if you leave when told, except that signs are considered to have told you this, and the sign is the new 46.03 sign. In the specific case of an LTC at a collegiate sporting event, the sign is either the 30.06 or 30.07 sign.

[code]While at first glance, the last part would appear to make it possible to only be prohibited for open or concealed carry for an LTC depending on the sign, remember that the clause it applies to is the location being prohibited if EITHER sign is posted. It is not if the sign is enforceable (which is a stupid way to implement this idea), but if the location itself is prohibited. To possibly make that more understandable, it means you will be charged with violating 46.03 and not 30.06 or 30.07 if they have either sign. [/code]

And the answer to why they have two different sections named m, there were two bills passed and signed by the governor. Each bill added a new section m. This actually happens a lot and one of the first bills passed each legislative session is a cleanup bill which goes through the code looking for this and renumbers everything to eliminate duplicate section letters and improper cross references.

This is my area of confusion and maybe it is only semantics. I define "prohibited locations" as the premises of a school, a polling place, a court house, etc. I call places with signs as a "posted place". Maybe in this post we are referring to a prohibited place as any place with a 46.03 or 30.06/07 sign. Are you saying that a posted 46.03 sign is binding on a LTC holder? In my renewal class back in August, that question was asked and the Instructor said that the 46.03 did not apply to LTC, only the 300.06/07 and 51% signs.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#9

Post by Tex1961 »

howdy wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:20 am
srothstein wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:18 pm The way I read that section of law, it is a clumsily worded attempt to say that prohibited locations must be posted or the person must be told and then not depart before charge can be filed. When I read the actual bill, section m, n, o, and p were all added at one time and in one specific section of the bill. Reading them all at once as one bill makes it more understandable to me. That way it says you cannot be charged if you leave when told, except that signs are considered to have told you this, and the sign is the new 46.03 sign. In the specific case of an LTC at a collegiate sporting event, the sign is either the 30.06 or 30.07 sign.

[code]While at first glance, the last part would appear to make it possible to only be prohibited for open or concealed carry for an LTC depending on the sign, remember that the clause it applies to is the location being prohibited if EITHER sign is posted. It is not if the sign is enforceable (which is a stupid way to implement this idea), but if the location itself is prohibited. To possibly make that more understandable, it means you will be charged with violating 46.03 and not 30.06 or 30.07 if they have either sign. [/code]

And the answer to why they have two different sections named m, there were two bills passed and signed by the governor. Each bill added a new section m. This actually happens a lot and one of the first bills passed each legislative session is a cleanup bill which goes through the code looking for this and renumbers everything to eliminate duplicate section letters and improper cross references.

This is my area of confusion and maybe it is only semantics. I define "prohibited locations" as the premises of a school, a polling place, a court house, etc. I call places with signs as a "posted place". Maybe in this post we are referring to a prohibited place as any place with a 46.03 or 30.06/07 sign. Are you saying that a posted 46.03 sign is binding on a LTC holder? In my renewal class back in August, that question was asked and the Instructor said that the 46.03 did not apply to LTC, only the 300.06/07 and 51% signs.
No... 46.03 are NO GO locations such as federal property, schools, etc.... Those apply to both LTC and Constitutional carry.....
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#10

Post by srothstein »

howdy wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:20 amThis is my area of confusion and maybe it is only semantics. I define "prohibited locations" as the premises of a school, a polling place, a court house, etc. I call places with signs as a "posted place". Maybe in this post we are referring to a prohibited place as any place with a 46.03 or 30.06/07 sign. Are you saying that a posted 46.03 sign is binding on a LTC holder? In my renewal class back in August, that question was asked and the Instructor said that the 46.03 did not apply to LTC, only the 300.06/07 and 51% signs.
The newest change is what you are asking about. This makes it possible to enter a prohibited location with a firearm if you have no notice, either sign or oral, and beat the rap. If there is no sign, you can enter until someone tells you no guns and then you must leave.

And your instructor must not have understood this section also or confused the signs. A 46.03 sign does apply to you IF it is truly a prohibited place listed in that section of the law.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#11

Post by howdy »

srothstein wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:10 pm
howdy wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:20 amThis is my area of confusion and maybe it is only semantics. I define "prohibited locations" as the premises of a school, a polling place, a court house, etc. I call places with signs as a "posted place". Maybe in this post we are referring to a prohibited place as any place with a 46.03 or 30.06/07 sign. Are you saying that a posted 46.03 sign is binding on a LTC holder? In my renewal class back in August, that question was asked and the Instructor said that the 46.03 did not apply to LTC, only the 300.06/07 and 51% signs.
The newest change is what you are asking about. This makes it possible to enter a prohibited location with a firearm if you have no notice, either sign or oral, and beat the rap. If there is no sign, you can enter until someone tells you no guns and then you must leave.

And your instructor must not have understood this section also or confused the signs. A 46.03 sign does apply to you IF it is truly a prohibited place listed in that section of the law.


This too is how I interpreted the law. I don't really care what law I get charged with because either one is bad. My requal instructor was correct in saying only 30.06/07 and 51% signs are all we need to worry about. He never said that we could carry in 46.03 prohibited places nor did he infer that.

This is why I love this forum. I tell my students about it and encourage them to ask questions from the gallery here because there are many (yourself included) members that are very knowledgeable on the nuances of the law.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#12

Post by Tex1961 »

Has anyone ever suggested instructor meetups ? Might be nice to sit around a few cups of coffee and talk about things like this.
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Re: Please help me understand some twists in PC § 46.15

#13

Post by wheelgun1958 »

I'm not an attorney, I was not involved in writing the statute, I'm just reading it. It appears 46.03(a) does not reference a hospital. That reference is under 46.03(a-1) (restricted knife) which also references place of worship.

Ok, so I downloaded the new and improved ltc16. Section (a-1) is repealed and the hospital reference is in (a)(11). So, still clear as mud.

I believe what I was looking for is 46.15(p).
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