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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
by Rob72
surprise_i'm_armed wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:29 pm
With regard to closing the cylinder on a revolver, Ken is shown on the video placing his fingers on the cylinder and pushing it closed, which is much better than snapping it sharply to the right to close it.

However, before Gander Mountain Frisco closed (shortly after opening, by the way!), a gentleman working the gun counter opined to me that the best way to close a revolver is to push on the crane, instead of the cylinder.

What does anyone think about pushing on a revolver's crane to close the cylinder, as opposed to pushing the cylinder itself? Would pushing on the crane somehow assure that the cylinder was positioned optimally for firing?

SIA
Specifically, pushing on the crane will allow the cylinder to rotate into position unimpeded, should the hand be cut long and prone to engaging the star more than the average revo should/would. It also does not apply leverage to an unsupported structure. If you are under stress, and are pushing at the middle to rear of the cylinder, anything coming into the frame gap will become locked in there. If the object has any rigidity (e.g., uniform brass button, brass or stainless zipper pull, you can generate enough fore to bend the crane. If you use the traditional reload method of pushing the cylinder out, using 2 finger of the left hand, inverting, hitting the ejector, dropping in a reload and closing the cylinder, you will find your thumb naturally positioned next to the crane arm. If you drop in the reload, and begin to draw the left hand back towards firing grip, your natural motion will be to push on the rear of the cylinder. This goes back to old school, high-stress absolute control of your revolver. I've seen this used in training, but not as a "general" rule of thumb.

I've carried and worked on a wide variety of small arms. Wilson, Brown, etc., were always waaaay too much for me to consider carrying, and shop tolerances were, IMHO, way too tight for something other than a range show piece. For most pistols, 500-1000 rounds is making sure everything works the way it should. The custom guns generally take at least 500 to build in enough slack to ensure the piece will actually operate, with another 500-1000 rounds before you can say it goes bang every time.

At the other end, I talked on the phone with Ashley Emerson, when he first started Ashley Express Sights (sold, now "XS Sights"). He did a demo for Jeff Cooper, at Gunsite. The sights impressed Cooper and the instructors, but they asked why Emerson put his sights on a "toy", i.e., Glock. Emerson pulled out his 17, cleared the chamber, inserted a loaded mag, and hurled it at a pile of rocks in a gorge. They all went down to retrieve his pistol. Everyone eared up, and Emerson emptied the mag into the hillside. He asked who would replicate the demo with the 1911s on hand. Dead silence, then laughter.

All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:03 pm
by AndyC
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:
Nonsense. That example proves just as much as me taking a Hi-Point and throwing it at rocks while you might have a Glock with $1,000 worth of custom work done to it. Still want to throw to make some kind of point?

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:16 pm
by WTR
I use all tools very hard and in adverse conditions at times. However, I never abuse them. Throw that Glock at a pile at rocks and it may shoot back at you.

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:26 pm
by Rob72
Not gonna fight with you bro. Wilson, Brown, etc., command a high price because they are the Ferraris of the firearms world. A Glock with a grand of mods is pretty self-defining as more inherently fragile than the base platform. A stock RIA or Springfield will be more tolerant of being dropped in the mud in the driveway, and coming up ready to fire, simply because of the looser tolerances than a custom 1911.

With regard to traumatic drops, the thumb safety, hammer hooks and sear of the 1911 are demonstrably more fragile than the flexible poly frame, and simpler firing group linkage in a Glock.

I would not drive a Ferrari 60 miles an hour through a parking lot, over speed bumps. If I did, bad, costly or irreparable, things would happen. Bad things might happen with my Ford Ranger, but the odds of survival in operational status are much higher. This is a reasonable analogy to carrying a defensive firearm.

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:27 pm
by Rob72
WTR wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:16 pm
I use all tools very hard and in adverse conditions at times. However, I never abuse them. Throw that Glock at a pile at rocks and it may shoot back at you.
As I indicated, per Emerson, it was a cleared chamber. No fools were at that table. :cool:

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm
by flechero
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
Emerson pulled out his 17, cleared the chamber, inserted a loaded mag, and hurled it at a pile of rocks in a gorge. They all went down to retrieve his pistol. Everyone eared up, and Emerson emptied the mag into the hillside. He asked who would replicate the demo with the 1911s on hand. Dead silence, then laughter.

All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:
They were laughing at him, not with him. No one in attendance had a cheap gun, except the idiot that threw his. And the reality is that if it had hit right, it could have easily been rendered useless.

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:26 am
by Bitter Clinger
flechero wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
Emerson pulled out his 17, cleared the chamber, inserted a loaded mag, and hurled it at a pile of rocks in a gorge. They all went down to retrieve his pistol. Everyone eared up, and Emerson emptied the mag into the hillside. He asked who would replicate the demo with the 1911s on hand. Dead silence, then laughter.

All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:
They were laughing at him, not with him. No one in attendance had a cheap gun, except the idiot that threw his. And the reality is that if it had hit right, it could have easily been rendered useless.
Sounds like you were there? Did you grab a picture with your film camera? Perhaps you could fax that to us?

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:12 am
by easy10
By design, only insert a magazine when the slide is locked back. Heard this, never saw it written any where.

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:48 am
by AndyC
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:26 am
flechero wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm
They were laughing at him, not with him. No one in attendance had a cheap gun, except the idiot that threw his. And the reality is that if it had hit right, it could have easily been rendered useless.
Sounds like you were there? Did you grab a picture with your film camera? Perhaps you could fax that to us?
I'm going to play the odds and guess that few people going to Gunsite will be taking a cheap 1911 (although I would, because I'm ornery that way).

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:27 am
by flechero
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:26 pm
Not gonna fight with you bro. Wilson, Brown, etc., command a high price because they are the Ferraris of the firearms world. A Glock with a grand of mods is pretty self-defining as more inherently fragile than the base platform. A stock RIA or Springfield will be more tolerant of being dropped in the mud in the driveway, and coming up ready to fire, simply because of the looser tolerances than a custom 1911.

With regard to traumatic drops, the thumb safety, hammer hooks and sear of the 1911 are demonstrably more fragile than the flexible poly frame, and simpler firing group linkage in a Glock.
I think your customized glock analogy is correct.... but the original comparison was a stock, unloaded glock thrown vs some [presumably] higher end 1911's. Going apples to apples, with an unchambered gun (thus hammer down on empty) I bet the old original spec wartime 1911's would have shot after being thrown. In fact the stories of some of the old guns are quite remarkable.

And for the record, I wouldn't throw any gun of mine at a rockpile, down a gorge... regardless of make, material or legend. :lol:

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:26 am
Sounds like you were there? Did you grab a picture with your film camera? Perhaps you could fax that to us?
I searched high and low for a pic of Cooper and Emerson, just for comedic relief, but couldn't find one!

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:32 am
by Rob72
flechero wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
Emerson pulled out his 17, cleared the chamber, inserted a loaded mag, and hurled it at a pile of rocks in a gorge. They all went down to retrieve his pistol. Everyone eared up, and Emerson emptied the mag into the hillside. He asked who would replicate the demo with the 1911s on hand. Dead silence, then laughter.

All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:
They were laughing at him, not with him. No one in attendance had a cheap gun, except the idiot that threw his. And the reality is that if it had hit right, it could have easily been rendered useless.
Not so much. It was the start of a longstanding relationship.
https://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993608

Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:49 pm
by flechero
Rob72 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:32 am
flechero wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm
Rob72 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm
Emerson pulled out his 17, cleared the chamber, inserted a loaded mag, and hurled it at a pile of rocks in a gorge. They all went down to retrieve his pistol. Everyone eared up, and Emerson emptied the mag into the hillside. He asked who would replicate the demo with the 1911s on hand. Dead silence, then laughter.

All that to say, some platforms are demonstrably more tolerant of abuse than others. :cheers2:
They were laughing at him, not with him. No one in attendance had a cheap gun, except the idiot that threw his. And the reality is that if it had hit right, it could have easily been rendered useless.
Not so much. It was the start of a longstanding relationship.
https://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993608
One has nothing to do with the other, unless he threw it off the cliff as well... :lol: Have you never had a laugh at a friend before? Or been the butt end of friendly laughter?