5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar

narcissist
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:09 am

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#16

Post by narcissist » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:24 pm

Jago668 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:10 pm
JRG wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:46 am
narcissist wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:50 am
Only way I'd go with a 32 is for [maybe] a ankle gun or a third back up gun.

I use a Glock 19x w-light/lazer as my main 3:30-4:00 o'clock position concealed then a Bond arms 410 Loaded with one 3 inch buckshot and one 3 inch Hornady Tap ammo as my pocket pistol and my ankle gun is a Glock 26. I always use +p+ ammo in all the 9s, Ive heard a lot of Horror storys on glocks exploding so I contacted Glock by email then by phone, they stated the pistols could Handle the +p+ ammo as long as its Factory, not Handloads Due to human error that can occur.

I use to just carry around just 61 rnds of ammo, now I upgraded. Now a total of 150rnds. 1 mag in the 26 with one in the chamber, one extra mag in the ankle holster on top. Then 3-20rnd mags for the 19x with 1 in chamber. The Bond arms just 2 in the gun. Then decided that 2-33 rnd Glock 9mm mags in the other pocket wouldnt hurt.

Sorry Paranoia maybe but best to be prepared then to run out of ammo, of course in "probably" 99% of self defense you dont need that much ammo. With all these mass shootings if Im there I'll try my hardest to help the victims by trying to take out the crazy guy. [ yes probably 1 in million chance of that happening/being in that location at the time of the incident ] but.......

Not trying to be a "Hero" just trying to do whats right in my mind/eyes that's all.
Narcissist,

I want you with me when I go down that dark alley! ;-)

Joe
What you don't know is that Narcissist is the one in the dark alley.
"rlol"
One of my biggest mistakes in life...Is Believing people will show me the same love I've shown them. :reddevil


surprise_i'm_armed
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 4375
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:16 am
Location: Shady Shores, Denton County. On the shores of Lake Lewisville. John Wayne filmed here.

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#17

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:02 pm

I work at a NPE

Please define NPE. I googled around for a definition for NPE, but this acronym has a very large number of definitions.

TIA - Thanks In Advance.
SIA - <you know!>
America.....just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need
to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us feel uncomfortable.

Hunter S. Thompson, Kentucky Colonel, gonzo journalist. 1937-2005.

User avatar

Topic author
AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#18

Post by AdioSS » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:40 pm

Non Permissive Environment

Basically, a place where they don’t want you to carry, even if it is legal.


surprise_i'm_armed
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 4375
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:16 am
Location: Shady Shores, Denton County. On the shores of Lake Lewisville. John Wayne filmed here.

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#19

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:17 pm

Thanks. That was a new on on me.

SIA
America.....just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need
to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us feel uncomfortable.

Hunter S. Thompson, Kentucky Colonel, gonzo journalist. 1937-2005.


JRG
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 818
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Altoona, IA

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#20

Post by JRG » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:37 pm

Jago668 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:10 pm
JRG wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:46 am
narcissist wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:50 am
Only way I'd go with a 32 is for [maybe] a ankle gun or a third back up gun.

I use a Glock 19x w-light/lazer as my main 3:30-4:00 o'clock position concealed then a Bond arms 410 Loaded with one 3 inch buckshot and one 3 inch Hornady Tap ammo as my pocket pistol and my ankle gun is a Glock 26. I always use +p+ ammo in all the 9s, Ive heard a lot of Horror storys on glocks exploding so I contacted Glock by email then by phone, they stated the pistols could Handle the +p+ ammo as long as its Factory, not Handloads Due to human error that can occur.

I use to just carry around just 61 rnds of ammo, now I upgraded. Now a total of 150rnds. 1 mag in the 26 with one in the chamber, one extra mag in the ankle holster on top. Then 3-20rnd mags for the 19x with 1 in chamber. The Bond arms just 2 in the gun. Then decided that 2-33 rnd Glock 9mm mags in the other pocket wouldnt hurt.

Sorry Paranoia maybe but best to be prepared then to run out of ammo, of course in "probably" 99% of self defense you dont need that much ammo. With all these mass shootings if Im there I'll try my hardest to help the victims by trying to take out the crazy guy. [ yes probably 1 in million chance of that happening/being in that location at the time of the incident ] but.......

Not trying to be a "Hero" just trying to do whats right in my mind/eyes that's all.
Narcissist,

I want you with me when I go down that dark alley! ;-)

Joe
What you don't know is that Narcissist is the one in the dark alley.

"rlol" "rlol" "rlol"

Joe


orionengnr
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:54 pm

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#21

Post by orionengnr » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 pm

I own several .380, but never carry them.
Okay, once or twice a year, when I am riding my bicycle on a trail ride and carrying the LCP in a fanny pack.

Other than that, I can easily conceal a Kahr PM9 or an S&W 638. And to be honest, haven't carried the 638 for three years or more.
The PM9 is a perfect CCW (for me).

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 25525
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#22

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:29 pm

Rob72 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:09 am
AdioSS wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:57 am
The reasons I picked those 2 are because I already have them & because this is for ankle carry. Weight is a big concern there.

I used to carry a subcompact 9mm IWB (my first pistol), but it became exposed as I was reaching up for something & I got a talking to by my supervisors & HR... I could try that in an ankle rig. The unloaded weight is actually less than the other 2. Then just load enough in the mag until it feels too heavy?

I also have a steel frame J-frame size .357, but it’s a bit heavy for ankle carry.

When off the clock I carry much larger pistolas.
.32 is just fine. :cool: People often forget that "Risk Management" is assessing multiple domains of risk, and prioritizing them. I would suspect that loss of your job, after that initial "unmasking" is a statistically significant greater risk than a workplace shooting.

Having tried ankle, years ago, I am not a fan, as I found it more likely to be inadvertently exposed, and slower overall than some other deep-carry, for instance:
https://www.desantisholster.com/pop-up-holster/
But, this assessment is very wardrobe dependent.

People also often forget that .357/.38+P velocity and relative power is generally calculated from a 6" barrel. The only significant advantage of a high power snubbie is either screwing it into someone's ear, or hard into the belly and towards the chest cavity. In this instance you're using a very real temporary wound channel created by muzzle blast. At distance, there is no real ballistic difference between the snubbie and a sub-compact/micro 9mm.

Truly, with either option you have, you're fine, as long as you have significant trigger time. Claude Werner is pretty much the guru of snubs, and he runs them hard and fast. ( https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/ )

I'm saying this as a guy heavily invested, with lots of spent rounds, in 9mm, and who has custom snubs.
When I mentioned the Hornady 125 grain Critical Defense for my .357 Snubbie, I did NOT forget barrel length. At the time that I was researching it as a potential carry round, there was no info on the round from a 2” barrel on Hornady's website, so I phoned them and asked if they had data for that cartridge in a j-frame with a 2” barrel (yes....I know it’s really 1-7/8", but I don’t think 1/8" is going to make a hill of beans' difference), and they said yes, and gave me the figures of 1200 FPS/400 ft-lbs. Shortly after that, Hornady added that information to their website, where it remained until their most recent website redesign, and now they only display data for an 8" barrel, at 1500 fps. The difference represents a velocity loss of 300 FPS over 6" of barrel length for a snubbie, or about 50 FPS/inch....which sounds about right.

Anyway, while I certainly accept that the same cartridge won't come zooming out of my 5" TRR8 at the same velocity as an 8" barrel, I have to put at least a modicum of faith in what I was told by a Hornady representative about the data for 2" barrels. The obvious caveat of course is that this is just 3rd party information until I can actually run it past a chronograph. This guy averaged 1286 FPS/459 ft-lbs from a 2.25" SP101, which isn’t out of line with 1200 FPS from a 2" barrel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdLusmslMo.

I would not want to attempt long range shots with my M&P340 because the sights are pretty rudimentary, but I’m quite confident in the power it can deliver at close self defense ranges, and I don't believe that it requires the muzzle blast to create a satisfactory temporary wound cavity. At shorter ranges, it will hit just like any other well designed bullet weighing 125 grains and traveling 1200 +/- FPS. IOW, it actually hits a little bit harder than a Hornady 124 grain 9mm +P Critical Duty from a 4" barrel (1175 FPS/380 ft-lbs).....and I sure don’t feel like my 4" barreled Glock 19 is a "belly gun". I’ll concede Werner's training experience, but I don’t think he’s got his ballistics down, if that's what he’s saying about .357 magnum ballistics in a snubnose.

But that’s just me. What do I know?

And at my age, I’m not getting "belly close" to an assailant if I can help it.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.


Rob72
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am
Location: Gulf Coast

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#23

Post by Rob72 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:29 pm
I’ll concede Werner's training experience, but I don’t think he’s got his ballistics down, if that's what he’s saying about .357 magnum ballistics in a snubnose.

But that’s just me. What do I know?

And at my age, I’m not getting "belly close" to an assailant if I can help it.
No, please don't attribute my statement to Claude! I did say, "generally..." :cool: And yes, Hornady in particular has developed loads specific to the snub. I have some myself, however:

Specific to the OP, assuming his job isn't pizza delivery, I'm going to say that risk of exposure/loss of employment is a greater risk than sudden assault with lethal intent. That being the case, smaller is better. 1 Tomcat magazine is about 1/2 the size of 5 rounds on a Speedstrip, and the Tomcat itself is appreciably smaller than a J, in addition to being generally easier to reload (unless you're a dedicated revo shooter). ;-)


Dan20703
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 pm
Location: Katy, Texas

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#24

Post by Dan20703 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Go with the one you are most comfortable with. The best one is the one you have on you when you need it.
There will always be prayer in schools as long as there are tests.

"It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

Image


K-Texas
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:34 pm
Location: Heart of Texas

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#25

Post by K-Texas » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:57 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:29 pm
Rob72 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:09 am
AdioSS wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:57 am
The reasons I picked those 2 are because I already have them & because this is for ankle carry. Weight is a big concern there.

I used to carry a subcompact 9mm IWB (my first pistol), but it became exposed as I was reaching up for something & I got a talking to by my supervisors & HR... I could try that in an ankle rig. The unloaded weight is actually less than the other 2. Then just load enough in the mag until it feels too heavy?

I also have a steel frame J-frame size .357, but it’s a bit heavy for ankle carry.

When off the clock I carry much larger pistolas.
.32 is just fine. :cool: People often forget that "Risk Management" is assessing multiple domains of risk, and prioritizing them. I would suspect that loss of your job, after that initial "unmasking" is a statistically significant greater risk than a workplace shooting.

Having tried ankle, years ago, I am not a fan, as I found it more likely to be inadvertently exposed, and slower overall than some other deep-carry, for instance:
https://www.desantisholster.com/pop-up-holster/
But, this assessment is very wardrobe dependent.

People also often forget that .357/.38+P velocity and relative power is generally calculated from a 6" barrel. The only significant advantage of a high power snubbie is either screwing it into someone's ear, or hard into the belly and towards the chest cavity. In this instance you're using a very real temporary wound channel created by muzzle blast. At distance, there is no real ballistic difference between the snubbie and a sub-compact/micro 9mm.

Truly, with either option you have, you're fine, as long as you have significant trigger time. Claude Werner is pretty much the guru of snubs, and he runs them hard and fast. ( https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/ )

I'm saying this as a guy heavily invested, with lots of spent rounds, in 9mm, and who has custom snubs.
When I mentioned the Hornady 125 grain Critical Defense for my .357 Snubbie, I did NOT forget barrel length. At the time that I was researching it as a potential carry round, there was no info on the round from a 2” barrel on Hornady's website, so I phoned them and asked if they had data for that cartridge in a j-frame with a 2” barrel (yes....I know it’s really 1-7/8", but I don’t think 1/8" is going to make a hill of beans' difference), and they said yes, and gave me the figures of 1200 FPS/400 ft-lbs. Shortly after that, Hornady added that information to their website, where it remained until their most recent website redesign, and now they only display data for an 8" barrel, at 1500 fps. The difference represents a velocity loss of 300 FPS over 6" of barrel length for a snubbie, or about 50 FPS/inch....which sounds about right.

Anyway, while I certainly accept that the same cartridge won't come zooming out of my 5" TRR8 at the same velocity as an 8" barrel, I have to put at least a modicum of faith in what I was told by a Hornady representative about the data for 2" barrels. The obvious caveat of course is that this is just 3rd party information until I can actually run it past a chronograph. This guy averaged 1286 FPS/459 ft-lbs from a 2.25" SP101, which isn’t out of line with 1200 FPS from a 2" barrel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdLusmslMo.

I would not want to attempt long range shots with my M&P340 because the sights are pretty rudimentary, but I’m quite confident in the power it can deliver at close self defense ranges, and I don't believe that it requires the muzzle blast to create a satisfactory temporary wound cavity. At shorter ranges, it will hit just like any other well designed bullet weighing 125 grains and traveling 1200 +/- FPS. IOW, it actually hits a little bit harder than a Hornady 124 grain 9mm +P Critical Duty from a 4" barrel (1175 FPS/380 ft-lbs).....and I sure don’t feel like my 4" barreled Glock 19 is a "belly gun". I’ll concede Werner's training experience, but I don’t think he’s got his ballistics down, if that's what he’s saying about .357 magnum ballistics in a snubnose.

But that’s just me. What do I know?

And at my age, I’m not getting "belly close" to an assailant if I can help it.
1200 FPS with a 125 gr. JHP from a 1 7/8" barrel is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately, I don't have nearly as much faith in Hornady's velocity ratings as I do my chronograph. My shooting partner and I tested the 135 gr. +P 9mm Critical Duty and from a 4.5" barrel in my case and it didn't come very close to its velocity spec. But, factory ammo rarely does, then that's exacerbated by ammo makers labeling 9mm as +P which really makes one wonder why? 1110 FPS with a 135 gr. bullet is fairly easily reached with Standard Pressure unless one really doesn't know much about loading factory or handloads and uses a powder that burns too fast. Yeah, their powders, or anyone else's, should yield the lowest flash possible. Today we have powders treated to reduce flash as slow burning as Accurate's version of W296 (Magnum Handgun) with 11FS. As a matter of fact, I'll be shooting 158 gr. XTPs later this afternoon, charged with 11FS where we'll fire then from my SP's S&W 2 1/2" M66-4.

It kind of perturbs me that companies like Hornady and Remington add a +P designation on 124 gr. loads at 1175 & 1180 FPS respectively, then neither are likely to reach it. The SPEER 124 gr. Gold Dot +P rated 1220 FPS? you'll be lucky to see more than 1180 FPS from a 4" barrel.

A 5-shot snub in .357 Magnum is very doable provided you can conceal additional ammo/speedloaders. The 125 gr Critical Defense load, if it actually chrono's 1200 FPS is plenty. I mentioned momentum where the lowest level I'd recommend to anyone is .600 Lb-seconds and prefer .6500 Lb-seconds for ny own loads. Skipping the first unnecessary step in converting mass we find this: 125/225218 x 1200 = Momentum in Lb-seconds. Some simply run the Power Factor calculation and that's okay if it works for them, whereas the calc I just gave will allow you to easily find muzzle energy as well. So, here we get .6660 Lb-seconds from the Critical Defense load. Then for ME: ME = Momentum x (Velocity/2), 400 Ft'lbs. Make sure that momentum is relative to energy as it is in this case, and you have a pretty effective defense load.

Not so easy to do with a 3.1" 9mm, but you can get enough momentum to ensure penetration by using a heavier bullet load that expands properly. Here's a link to an article on momentum I recently wrote for the Western Powders blog. http://blog.westernpowders.com/2019/09/ ... allistics/ on previous pages I've written a number of articles on 9mm performance. For the load intended for the S&W Shield I used the Berry's 147 gr. Hybrid HP at 900 FPS. It is technically a well conceived plated bullet and expansion is impressive. Finding a 9mm 147 gr. JHP load that works well, look for one that's designed for short barrels, and test expansion yourself. Also at the Western blog you'll find articles by Charles Schwartz whom authored the book, Quantitative Ammunition Selection. He also has a spreadsheet program that I use and hope to see offered commercially soon. So you don't have BB calibrated 10% ballistic ordnance gel ar 38 degrees? No worries! In 900 tests comparing his mathematical model directly to common defense loads that were shot into the FBI spec gel, and not a substitute, the accuracy rate is 95+ % and in all the years I've studied ballistic or stopping power theories, 95% accuracy is impressive to say the least.

If you have a chrono and want to conduct your own penetration prediction test, let me know and I can run it. You'll need velocity, of course, with the chrono placed just ahead of the water vessel, or just set the first water jug, or preferably water-filled baggie at the same distance you chrono at, 12' for me; recover the expanded bullet, weigh it for mass and if the expansion causes the JHP to petal, measure the 3 greatest diameters and the 3 least between the petals.

Since I mentioned that I'll be testing loads later today, I can give some examples for those interested. You don't have to be in the dark when it comes to getting the best defense ammo you can buy, or make! ;-)
Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want . . .

User avatar

AndyC
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 10690
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:34 pm
Location: Garland, TX

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#26

Post by AndyC » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:45 pm

AdioSS wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:11 pm
What do y’all suggest?
Which one do you shoot better?
Remember Kitty Genovese

Image

Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club, Iraq
There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 25525
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#27

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:56 pm

Rob72 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 am
Specific to the OP, assuming his job isn't pizza delivery, I'm going to say that risk of exposure/loss of employment is a greater risk than sudden assault with lethal intent. That being the case, smaller is better. 1 Tomcat magazine is about 1/2 the size of 5 rounds on a Speedstrip, and the Tomcat itself is appreciably smaller than a J, in addition to being generally easier to reload (unless you're a dedicated revo shooter). ;-)
Ok, I’ll buy that. And no, I’m not a dedicated revolver carrier. My EDC rotation consist of 3 different 9mm Glocks. My snubbie is a "throw it in the pocket to walk down to the mailbox" gun.

If things get so bad that a 5-shot revolver isn't enough for a walk down to the mailbox, then maybe I should sling up one of my ARs. :lol:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

User avatar

Topic author
AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#28

Post by AdioSS » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:53 pm

Good question. I should probably compare that.

And when I carry my 642 it is loaded with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 Spl +P. I hear that’s a quality load.

And Beretta recommends to keep ammo loaded for the Tomcat at or under 130ft-lbs because the frame could crack. I bought mine for cheap because it had already cracked.

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 25525
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#29

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:32 pm

Part 3 of a very good series:


This is a very good video that addresses some of the questions being discussed here.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

User avatar

Topic author
AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: 5rds 38Spl+P vs 8rds 32acp

#30

Post by AdioSS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:12 am

Yep, good series. I watched it tonight. I need to take a little time to shoot both guns together to compare.

Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”