Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

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spectre
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#16

Post by spectre » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:07 pm

Jusme wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 am
Lawrence said he did not know or recognize the men, who had allegedly been on a crime spree, information jurors are barred from hearing.

This is the part I don't understand. Why was this information, kept secret from the jury?
It might make them more sympathetic to the man who shot the career criminals.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#17

Post by stroo » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:01 pm

Its hard to make a self defense case at these distances in any state. These guys were up to no good but that didn't give license to the defendant to shoot them. Tragic for the defendant.

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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#18

Post by AndyC » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:19 am

Jusme wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 am
Lawrence said he did not know or recognize the men, who had allegedly been on a crime spree, information jurors are barred from hearing.

This is the part I don't understand. Why was this information, kept secret from the jury?
I imagine that, because Lawrence didn't know that at the time either, the fact they were on a crime-spree can't be used to justify his shooting of them.
Last edited by AndyC on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#19

Post by DEB » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:59 am

I don't feel any sympathy for these two "Teens" or their families. Keep your hands to yourself, don't cuss or yell at others and don't steal and you probably will live a pretty good life, without prison or violent death being in your future. These two were up to no good and were taken out of the gene pool.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#20

Post by oohrah » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:47 am

AndyC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:19 am
Jusme wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 am
Lawrence said he did not know or recognize the men, who had allegedly been on a crime spree, information jurors are barred from hearing.

This is the part I don't understand. Why was this information, kept secret from the jury?
I imagine that, because Lawrence didn't know that at the time either, the fact they were on a crime-spree can't be used to justify his shooting of them.
Because that information is not relevant to proving the guilt or innocence of the specific act on trial. That information can be used for sentencing after found guilty.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#21

Post by BBYC » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:16 pm

How far away were they when they were shot? It's easy to imagine somebody shot with a 22 could run 30 to 100 yards before they collapsed and died.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#22

Post by WTR » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:44 pm

BBYC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:16 pm
How far away were they when they were shot? It's easy to imagine somebody shot with a 22 could run 30 to 100 yards before they collapsed and died.
Medical Examiner said they both likely died immediately. I’m not shooting anyone running from me unless they are threatening my family or me.

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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#23

Post by AndyC » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:39 pm

BBYC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:16 pm
How far away were they when they were shot? It's easy to imagine somebody shot with a 22 could run 30 to 100 yards before they collapsed and died.
Sure, that's possible - but the investigators likely found blood spatter at the places they were initially shot which helped make that determination. Don't know any specifics about it, though.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#24

Post by TreyHouston » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:57 pm

Oldgringo wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:55 am
I'd have to think long and hard before I shot somebody in the back.
Without knowing his situation, it is hard to say. What is he had no way to replace his vehicle?
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#25

Post by Paladin » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:01 pm

While the deceased were criminals apparently trying to do a burglary, calling the shooting self-defense is absurd. I think "vigilante justice" is a far more fitting term. And that sort justice is illegal.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#26

Post by PriestTheRunner » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:05 pm

Paladin wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:01 pm
While the deceased were criminals apparently trying to do a burglary, calling the shooting self-defense is absurd. I think "vigilante justice" is a far more fitting term. And that sort justice is illegal.
Legal in Texas. The "Self-Defense" argument for the closer one is possible... but 100 yards away...?
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#27

Post by Paladin » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:47 pm

PriestTheRunner wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:05 pm
Paladin wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:01 pm
While the deceased were criminals apparently trying to do a burglary, calling the shooting self-defense is absurd. I think "vigilante justice" is a far more fitting term. And that sort justice is illegal.
Legal in Texas. The "Self-Defense" argument for the closer one is possible... but 100 yards away...?
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Yeah, with Matthew McMillen shot in the back 337 feet away, even under Texas Defense of Property, among other things Lawrence would need to show that McMillen had committed burglary or was trying to escape with property. Did McMillen have stolen property on him? Did Lawrence even know at the time about the neighbor's break-in?

Michigan legal defense of property(fleeing felon) is what is at issue and is a pretty thin defense in this case.
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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#28

Post by eyedoc » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:28 pm

BBYC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:16 pm
How far away were they when they were shot? It's easy to imagine somebody shot with a 22 could run 30 to 100 yards before they collapsed and died.
The head shot victim would have probably dropped on the spot where he was shot. The one shot in the back could have easily ran for 10 seconds to a minute after being shot.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/08/do ... heart.html
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – A doctor testified Tuesday that a stranded black motorist could have run for 15 seconds before collapsing after being shot through the heart by a fired Florida police officer.

Forensic pathologist John Marraccini said Corey Jones also might not have left a blood trail after being shot by former Palm Beach Gardens officer Nouman Raja in October 2015.
Last edited by eyedoc on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#29

Post by eyedoc » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:29 pm

AndyC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:39 pm
BBYC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:16 pm
How far away were they when they were shot? It's easy to imagine somebody shot with a 22 could run 30 to 100 yards before they collapsed and died.
Sure, that's possible - but the investigators likely found blood spatter at the places they were initially shot which helped make that determination. Don't know any specifics about it, though.
There would probably not be much if any splatter from a .22 to the back

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Re: Teens died about 87 and 337 feet from man who said he fired in self-defense

#30

Post by AndyC » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:14 am

Doesn't have to be much blood - forensics guys are pretty good and a blue light will show a small amount of blood. I'm not going to bet against them.
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