TexasCHLforum.com

Hello,

I am a former Texas public schoolteacher and I have gone into the ministry. I work at a congregation of about 200 or so. We currently do not have 30-06 or 30-07 signage up in our building, which means anyone can carry. What I'd like to know is that if we were to put up the signage, would our deacons and ushers still be allowed to carry in their official capacity as leadership in the church? I am getting my CHL because of the current conditions regarding religious liberty and some of the violence toward churches in the US (Sutherland Springs, Wedgwood Baptist, etc.)

Probably a dumb question, but I am very new to the whole CHL experience. As a background, I grew up hunting and fishing as a kid, so I knew my way around firearms from early on. I have not served in the military (eyesight), and I do not have an arsenal of firearms, just a few. My wife and kids enjoy going to the range with me, so none of them are scared of guns. I am looking for advice for the neophyte. I am not nervous about carrying, neither is my wife. Do you guys recommend situational awareness classes, liability insurance, etc.? Nothing against [Pre-paid legal service], I just don't think I want to pay a retainer to a lawyer if I can get the same deal with insurance as well.

Also, I am a southpaw. Whether it is guns or guitars, left-handers just need to be prepared to pay more. Both the H&K VP9SK and the Ruger American Compact have fully ambi controls. Which, in y'alls opinion, is the better deal?

Stick_Shift wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:44 pm Hello,

I am a former Texas public schoolteacher and I have gone into the ministry. I work at a congregation of about 200 or so. We currently do not have 30-06 or 30-07 signage up in our building, which means anyone can carry. What I'd like to know is that if we were to put up the signage, would our deacons and ushers still be allowed to carry in their official capacity as leadership in the church? I am getting my CHL because of the current conditions regarding religious liberty and some of the violence toward churches in the US (Sutherland Springs, Wedgwood Baptist, etc.)

Probably a dumb question, but I am very new to the whole CHL experience. As a background, I grew up hunting and fishing as a kid, so I knew my way around firearms from early on. I have not served in the military (eyesight), and I do not have an arsenal of firearms, just a few. My wife and kids enjoy going to the range with me, so none of them are scared of guns. I am looking for advice for the neophyte. I am not nervous about carrying, neither is my wife. Do you guys recommend situational awareness classes, liability insurance, etc.? Nothing against [Pre-paid legal service], I just don't think I want to pay a retainer to a lawyer if I can get the same deal with insurance as well.

Also, I am a southpaw. Whether it is guns or guitars, left-handers just need to be prepared to pay more. Both the H&K VP9SK and the Ruger American Compact have fully ambi controls. Which, in y'alls opinion, is the better deal?

Lack of 30.06/30.07 means that good guys are not prohibited from carrying. Criminals do not care what the signs say, and by definition do not follow the law. I would encourage you to not prohibit the most law abiding section of the community from carrying. The Catholic Diocese of Fort Worth took down their signs after Sutherland Springs. They did not want to be seen as a "gun free zone" and therefore invite people who wish to do harm. https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Fort- ... 58201.html

Stick_Shift wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:44 pm Hello,

I am a former Texas public schoolteacher and I have gone into the ministry. I work at a congregation of about 200 or so. We currently do not have 30-06 or 30-07 signage up in our building, which means anyone can carry. What I'd like to know is that if we were to put up the signage, would our deacons and ushers still be allowed to carry in their official capacity as leadership in the church? I am getting my CHL because of the current conditions regarding religious liberty and some of the violence toward churches in the US (Sutherland Springs, Wedgwood Baptist, etc.)

Probably a dumb question, but I am very new to the whole CHL experience. As a background, I grew up hunting and fishing as a kid, so I knew my way around firearms from early on. I have not served in the military (eyesight), and I do not have an arsenal of firearms, just a few. My wife and kids enjoy going to the range with me, so none of them are scared of guns. I am looking for advice for the neophyte. I am not nervous about carrying, neither is my wife. Do you guys recommend situational awareness classes, liability insurance, etc.? Nothing against [Pre-paid legal service], I just don't think I want to pay a retainer to a lawyer if I can get the same deal with insurance as well.

Also, I am a southpaw. Whether it is guns or guitars, left-handers just need to be prepared to pay more. Both the H&K VP9SK and the Ruger American Compact have fully ambi controls. Which, in y'alls opinion, is the better deal?

Not going to judge the issue of signage, but I will answer your question: you have the authority to allow anyone you approve - either verbally or in writing - to carry past the signage lawfully if you choose.

Posting signs, as Flightmare said, only prohibits those who have been subjected, to an extensive background check, submitted their fingerprints into a database, and passed a written, and shooting proficiency test, from carrying.
LTC holders, are the most law abiding citizens, in the State, including police officers.
Why would you want to post signs, on a church, which is supposed to be welcoming, and potentially turn away those who simply wish to take their safety and security, into their own hands?
I carry every Sunday in church, I CC, so as not to distract other worshippers, from concentrating, on the message.
I can understand not wanting congregants to OC, but that can be easily remedied, by having a member of your security team to ask them to cover up their gun.
In the unlikely, but still possible scenario, of someone wanting to do harm, the more good guys/ gals with guns, the better. JMHO

Stick_Shift wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:44 pm Hello,

I am a former Texas public schoolteacher and I have gone into the ministry. I work at a congregation of about 200 or so. We currently do not have 30-06 or 30-07 signage up in our building, which means anyone can carry. What I'd like to know is that if we were to put up the signage, would our deacons and ushers still be allowed to carry in their official capacity as leadership in the church? I am getting my CHL because of the current conditions regarding religious liberty and some of the violence toward churches in the US (Sutherland Springs, Wedgwood Baptist, etc.)

Probably a dumb question, but I am very new to the whole CHL experience. As a background, I grew up hunting and fishing as a kid, so I knew my way around firearms from early on. I have not served in the military (eyesight), and I do not have an arsenal of firearms, just a few. My wife and kids enjoy going to the range with me, so none of them are scared of guns. I am looking for advice for the neophyte. I am not nervous about carrying, neither is my wife. Do you guys recommend situational awareness classes, liability insurance, etc.? Nothing against [Pre-paid legal service], I just don't think I want to pay a retainer to a lawyer if I can get the same deal with insurance as well.

Also, I am a southpaw. Whether it is guns or guitars, left-handers just need to be prepared to pay more. Both the H&K VP9SK and the Ruger American Compact have fully ambi controls. Which, in y'alls opinion, is the better deal?

The 30.06 and 30.07 signs only prevent the most law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves in your house of worship. Criminals and those with evil intentions do not care about any signs.
I recommend that you not infringe upon your parishioners God given, Constitutionally protected rights to protect themselves and their families.
To be blunt, there's a word for someone who says "I can obtain a LTC and carry in church, but you can't."
The church I am a member of does not have signs, but the ushers and safety team will ask that anyone who is open carrying to conceal their weapons.

Everyone else answered your question regarding 30.06 and 30.07.

As far as the HK vs Ruger, that’s easy. HK all day long. The ruger is a budget gun, that will definitely get you by. The HK is one of the very best (if not THE best) striker fired polymer handgun. It’s reliable, accurate, ambidextrous, and very easy to shoot.

What logical reason would make you want to disarm your parishioners while bad guys can easily come in and shoot up the place. Yes you could allow certain people to carry if you posted but remember the safest people have their LTC and the more that carry the safer you are.

I was carrying on stage at church, all day this past Sunday. My church is posted 30.07, but not 30.06. We are not "anti-gun", we are pro-Jesus. Other members of the worship team besides myself carry too. Our pastoral staff don’t care if someone wants to (lawfully) carry a concealed firearm in/on the premises, but we don’t want the presence of that firearm to be a distraction to others, and the only way to do that while still respecting the desire of those who want to carry, is to require the lawfully carried gun to be concealed. Like most evangelical churches in Texas, the majority of our congregation tends to be on the conservative side and not particularly upset by firearms, but we are not monolithically so. I know of several members whose personal politics are well to the left of my own; and we are also a growing church, with a few new "seekers" among the congregation at most services. We want those seekers in particular to be focused on experiencing the Word, and not to be distracted by something they may not be comfortable with. This is GOD's house, not the NRA's or GOA's house.

Anyway, tailor whatever signage you feel is necessary to your church, but my advice would be to not post any signs up, and if you feel it necessary, just post a 30.07 sign. As others have said, it’s not LTC holders you need to worry about, and the criminally inclined will ignore your signs....plus, those signs don't apply to NON-LTC holders. The only ones they’ll exclude are those citizens who’ve passed the all the background checks and jumped through all the hoops, and who incidentally commit crimes at a lower rate than even LEOs.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:34 pm I was carrying on stage at church, all day this past Sunday. My church is posted 30.07, but not 30.06. We are not "anti-gun", we are pro-Jesus. Other members of the worship team besides myself carry too. Our pastoral staff don’t care if someone wants to (lawfully) carry a concealed firearm in/on the premises, but we don’t want the presence of that firearm to be a distraction to others, and the only way to do that while still respecting the desire of those who want to carry, is to require the lawfully carried gun to be concealed. Like most evangelical churches in Texas, the majority of our congregation tends to be on the conservative side and not particularly upset by firearms, but we are not monolithically so. I know of several members whose personal politics are well to the left of my own; and we are also a growing church, with a few new "seekers" among the congregation at most services. We want those seekers in particular to be focused on experiencing the Word, and not to be distracted by something they may not be comfortable with. This is GOD's house, not the NRA's or GOA's house.

Anyway, tailor whatever signage you feel is necessary to your church, but my advice would be to not post any signs up, and if you feel it necessary, just post a 30.07 sign. As others have said, it’s not LTC holders you need to worry about, and the criminally inclined will ignore your signs....plus, those signs don't apply to NON-LTC holders. The only ones they’ll exclude are those citizens who’ve passed the all the background checks and jumped through all the hoops, and who incidentally commit crimes at a lower rate than even LEOs.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

This is the response I was looking for. Thanks. You think like I do.

I wanted to know what our options were. Those have been explained. It isn’t that we don’t want people to carry, but we do have members that might be unnerved by it. If they knew. My eldership team is fully on board and supportive of my getting a CHL. We have members who carry. I want to develop a church security plan and I’m trying to figure out the best way to go about it.

I see you’re from NRH. I grew up in Haltom and we had a lot of youth events with the churches over in your direction. Nicest, kindest people I’ve ever known.

Howdy, Stick-Shift, and welcome to the forum. Most of the questions you have asked will be answered in your License To Carry class. One thing that won't be covered, most likely, is that you cannot use the word "security" in reference to your church team. Texas Occupation Code 1702.333
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... C.1702.htm

I'm a member of the First Baptist Church in my city. If the church had posted 30.06 or 30.07, I would have left and found another church home. What we did instead was to announce, before 1/1/16, that handguns should be covered in the sanctuary during worship (Romans 14). The greeters and ushers will verbally inform anyone carrying openly to conceal before entering the sanctuary. Works well for us. You mileage will vary.

The answer to your question on posting is found in Texas Penal Code Title 7, Chapter 30, sections 30.06 and 30.07.
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... /PE.30.htm

The short version is you have three methods for communicating your prohibition of licensed firearm carriers. As has been stated, criminals will not abide by your wishes, only peaceful, lawful persons will care.

1. Verbal notice by the property owner or one acting in the stead of the owner.
2. Cards with the verbiage shown in 30.06 and 30.07.
3. Signs meeting the requirements of 30.06 and 30.07.

There are many good sources of information on church safety teams (we cannot call them security) in Texas. The Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University in San Marcos has created both ALERRT and the Civilian Response to Active Shooter Events (CRASE) course. https://alerrt.org/ Your local law enforcement probably has a certified trainer who can present the CRASE training at your church.

Self defense trainers in Texas, such as KR Training, can also consult and train. KR is presenting CRASE, free of charge, on July 13, 2019.
https://krtraining.com/schedule.html

Former Army Ranger John Lovell, of the Warrior Poet Society, has created 12 videos on church security. He is not based in Texas and can call it security.
http://warriorpoetsociety.us/church-security

The Texas Legislature tasked the Department of Public Safety with creating a school safety program. KR Training is also presenting that 2 day course in July. Here is the description: https://krtraining.com/KRTraining/Class ... afety.html I have completed this training and found it quiet good and worth the price. There may be a DPS certified trainer near you.

Again, welcome to the forum.

Stick_Shift wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:59 pm I see you’re from NRH. I grew up in Haltom and we had a lot of youth events with the churches over in your direction. Nicest, kindest people I’ve ever known.

We are members at 1:21 Community Church in Grapevine. If you’re ever up this way and have a Sunday off, please come visit! PM me in advance and I’ll be happy to meet you and show you around. Also, one of our moderators here, Carlson1, pastors a church over in Irving; and I think we may have one or two other members here who are pastors, whose brains you might be able to pick.