To Campus Carry or Not To Carry - Thoughts?

[ScottDLS]

At my private university right now and they have all the standard gun buster signs - haven't observed any 30.06 signs. However according to the campus trackers, my university has chosen to "opt out." The student handbook only states weapons are not allowed per state law and campus policy. This is last year's handbook so it may be updated before class start.

If nothing changes when classes start in a couple weeks, would you carry? With 3 classes costing $8,000 in tuition alone, getting expelled would be pretty expensive but I could still keep handgun stored in car, thoughts?

As a private universities police officer, I wouldn't recommend it. The least that could happen if caught is you would be expelled and possibly criminally trespassed from the property. The worst is you could be arrested for a class A.

I hope that campus carry goes great and more private universities adopt similar policies to public universities and allow students to carry self defense handguns. If not, I hope the legislature could step in and pass a law allowing it.

Why would you get arrested for a crime you didn't commit (i.e. 30.06 not posted). I probably would take the chance of getting expelled, but is it common to arrest people for crimes they didn't commit?

[oohrah]

I have to agree with nightmare69. My private university has only posted a few 30.06 so far, but they sent a broadcast email yesterday. It reminded everybody that they were prohibiting firearms in building, grounds, premises, etc. and signs would soon be going up. It ended with the posting of the 30.06 language in both english and spanish. They did reiterate the allowance of an LTC to keep their firearm locked in their vehicle on campus.

I don't know if this constitutes effective notice for students and faculty, but it certainly does not for the general public. So now, I won't carry, but until signs are up, any old joe can walk into my building legally CCing until the signs go up.

And yes, it is a Class A. It also means that not only are the buildings are off limits as before, but the grounds as well.

The good side for me, is that there is no longer the "participation in school sponsored activity" sanction. I do a lot of field trips, and now I can carry off campus, or keep it in my vehicle while transporting students, which I couldn't before.

The only thing campus carry changes is buildings. The grounds, public sidewalks, parking lots etc. are no more off limits now than they ever were. Personally unless there's signage to make it a legal issue, I wouldn't sweat policy issues.

I've also been reconsidering what schools I will be applying to for my PhD program. SMU & Baylor were my top choices, but all of a sudden A&M and UNT are looking a lot more appealing.

No student should ever have to choose between their constitutionally granted rights & their education.

Not entirely true. Prior to Campus Carry, college premises (buildings) were off limits by statute, grounds and parking lots were not. Now a private university can post their grounds, their parking lots, whatever they want. All they have to allow is licensees to keep it in their vehicles in their parking lots.

[ScottDLS]

I have to agree with nightmare69. My private university has only posted a few 30.06 so far, but they sent a broadcast email yesterday. It reminded everybody that they were prohibiting firearms in building, grounds, premises, etc. and signs would soon be going up. It ended with the posting of the 30.06 language in both english and spanish. They did reiterate the allowance of an LTC to keep their firearm locked in their vehicle on campus.

I don't know if this constitutes effective notice for students and faculty, but it certainly does not for the general public. So now, I won't carry, but until signs are up, any old joe can walk into my building legally CCing until the signs go up.

And yes, it is a Class A. It also means that not only are the buildings are off limits as before, but the grounds as well.

The good side for me, is that there is no longer the "participation in school sponsored activity" sanction. I do a lot of field trips, and now I can carry off campus, or keep it in my vehicle while transporting students, which I couldn't before.

The only thing campus carry changes is buildings. The grounds, public sidewalks, parking lots etc. are no more off limits now than they ever were. Personally unless there's signage to make it a legal issue, I wouldn't sweat policy issues.

I've also been reconsidering what schools I will be applying to for my PhD program. SMU & Baylor were my top choices, but all of a sudden A&M and UNT are looking a lot more appealing.

No student should ever have to choose between their constitutionally granted rights & their education.

Not entirely true. Prior to Campus Carry, college premises (buildings) were off limits by statute, grounds and parking lots were not. Now a private university can post their grounds, their parking lots, whatever they want. All they have to allow is licensees to keep it in their vehicles in their parking lots.

Grounds and parking lots of colleges were always off limits IF POSTED 30.06...the change is that buildings have to be posted now to legally be off limits.

[casp625]

Well I dug around the campus website and FINALLY found their stance on SB11. They mention how they have opted out and even posted a 30.06 online. Gun buster signs still remain up on all doors to the campus though. I won't carry but I can't imagine this could be effective notice for the general population?

On a side note, if 30.06 is posted in the handbook, and they only post the handbook online and do not hand them out, does that provide notice to students and teachers ONLY while everyone else is clear to carry? Or does this not count for students and staff?

[jkurtz]

I stopped by TCU this past week to pick up my parking pass for the year. I had no need to walk around campus, but the one building I did have to go to (the police station) was not posted.

[thetexan]

At my private university right now and they have all the standard gun buster signs - haven't observed any 30.06 signs. However according to the campus trackers, my university has chosen to "opt out." The student handbook only states weapons are not allowed per state law and campus policy. This is last year's handbook so it may be updated before class start.

If nothing changes when classes start in a couple weeks, would you carry? With 3 classes costing $8,000 in tuition alone, getting expelled would be pretty expensive but I could still keep handgun stored in car, thoughts?

Yes as described. The school president may, after conferring with students and faculty over the unique situations of that school, may certainly opt out AS LONG AS THE RULES ARE REASONABLE AND NOT A GENERAL PROHIBITION. But to implement that policy the school has no choice but to notify as per 30.06.

A written policy in a school handbook is not enough, schools must make their prohibition intentions known ONLY by way of 30.06 notification.

If there is no 30.06 notification and there is no other federal or state statutory prohibition then concealed carry is permissible.

And as always, in Texas, gunbuster signs as well as other non 30.06 language or graphics, are meaningless and have no legal prohibitive authority.

tex

[jimd1981]

The school president may, after conferring with students and faculty over the unique situations of that school, may certainly opt out AS LONG AS THE RULES ARE REASONABLE AND NOT A GENERAL PROHIBITION. But to implement that policy the school has not choice but to notify as per 30.06.

A written policy in a school handbook is not enough, schools must not make their intentions know ONLY by way of 30.06 notification.

Tex, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. IANAL, but it would appear that, as a private university, they can just "opt out", period.

GC §411.2031. CARRYING OF HANDGUNS BY LICENSE HOLDERS ON CERTAIN CAMPUSES, Subsection (c) says:
Except as provided by Subsection (d), (d-1), or (e), an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state may not adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns on the campus of the institution.

And Subsection (e) states:
(e) A private or independent institution of higher education in this state, after consulting with students, staff, and faculty of the institution, may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns on the campus of the institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by the institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle owned by the institution. (Emphasis mine)

As a private or independent institution of higher education in the state, it would appear that they are not required to provide 30.06 notification, or follow the "NOT A GENERAL PROHIBITION" guidelines, nor do they need to follow any of the other provisions of sections (d) through (d-4).

Public schools must adhere to the regulations set forth in (d) through (d-4), which mandate the 30.06 notice among other things.

Regards, Jim

[thetexan]

Paragraph e and d2 refer to two different types of school. Under d-2 Institutes of higher education must notify under 30.06 and private or independent institutions under paragraph e does not state that requirement.

So I agree, there is an opt out and there does not seem to be a notify requirement specifically mandated UNDER PARA E. However, being a private institution it would seem that they have the same duty to notify under 30.06 as any other private property owner. 2031 does not supersede 30.06 simply by virtue that the .06 notification is absent in it, I would think. To supersede I believe it would need to specify that with something similar to ..."private or independent instiitutions do not need to provide notification under 30.06".

They may opt out under e but I see nothing that allows them to not notify under 30.06 that they have opted out. The general rule, and again I see nothing here to be an exception, is that any location (which now includes campi) that is not one of the sacred 13 prohibited areas falls into the general location category and therefore comes under 30.06 and 30.07 statutes.

2031 simply stipulates how a education institution arrives at its rules and regulations and what those are allowed to be.

For example, I don't care what how Texas Road House is mandated to arrive at its rules and regulations, or if it is allowed to even opt out of being required to allow cc...that's an internal matter guided analogically by statutes governing restaraunts. Once they have properly arrived at those rules and regulations or a decision to opt out, they have a requirement to notify under 30.06 as a private entity. This seems to be reinforced by the requirement of other schools TO notify by 30.06 per d-2. In other words, opting out for certain buildings or opting out of all buildings (allowed under e, and without the reasonableness requirement for private institutions, by the way) is still a prohibition against cc in whole or in part. Albeit presumptive on my part, both would require 30.06 notification for paragraph e institutions.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the legislature distinguished between the two types of institutions. That distinction may be deliberate or an omission when writing para e. Why would a private higher institution of learning who has not been statutorily added to the list of prohibited location be exempted deliberately and set apart from all other Texas locations concerning the requirement to notify. Keep in mind that a private entity who decides internally to not allow carriage needs to somehow make that known. Under our current system that method of dissemination is either...1) notify under 30.06 or 2) make it statutorily off limits by making the private institution one of the sacred "14" and therefore making 30.06 unnecessary, as with polling places on the day of voting. Here we seem to have neither. It isn't off limits by statute...it is off limits by school decision (allowed by statute). It isn't off limits by notification because notification is not specified under paragraph e. So I guess we are just supposed to surmise the policy as private citizens. That can't be true either.

Nope. Off limits by statute or off limits by notification. Those are the only two choices I see.

How does that conversation go?...

private institution....We don't have to notify because we're a special school who has been given permission to completely rule out having to allow cc on our campus and in that paragraph that grants us that right there is no requirement to notify of that prohibition per 30.06 found in paragraph e.

judge...are you one of the 13 places the legislature has, by state statute, mandated a PROHIBITION against cc??

private institution....no

judge...were you given a statutory right to rule out cc?

private institution....yes.

judge...have you been given a statutory right to not comply with 30.06?

private institution....that requirement is not specified in paragraph e.

judge...I repeat my question...have you been given a statutory exemption to 30.06 as a private entity.

private institution...No. But there is no requirement under paragraph e.

judge...Does paragraph e deal specifically with your right to decide to rule or regulate out cc?

private institution....yes.

judge...does it deal with any other aspect of cc such as notification, explicitly or implicitly?

private institution...no.

judge...is not your contention that you have freedom from notification an assumed freedom based on the fact that there is no mention of notification in paragraph e?

private institution....yes.

judge...then, as a private institution, your contention is that because a requirement to notify is not found in paragraph e you are exempted from 30.06.

on and on....

That's my line of reasoning.

tex

[casp625]

Private institutions must still give notice per Texas PC 46.035:

(a-2) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on the campus of a private or independent institution of higher education in this state that has established rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns pursuant to Section 411.2031(e), Government Code, or on the grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by such an institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of such an institution, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06

[aero10]

Could a private university be considered the same as an employer? To my understanding, a business does not have to post a 30.06 sign to prevent employees from carrying. This would definitely translate to private university faculty and staff and could also be argued that due to the nature of universities, students could also be covered the same way. At a minimum, posted or not, if a private university makes it part of it's policy to prohibit carrying on campus (allowed by state law) the offender (faculty, staff, student) could be subject to disciplinary action (firing, expulsion, etc.) for breaking university policies. Without 30.06 they may not be able to ticket/arrest you, but you may very well likely have no legal recourse to fight the disciplinary action.

This would not apply to the general public as they are not affiliated with the private university, same as any other business.

[thetexan]

Private institutions must still give notice per Texas PC 46.035:

(a-2) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on the campus of a private or independent institution of higher education in this state that has established rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns pursuant to Section 411.2031(e), Government Code, or on the grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by such an institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of such an institution, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06

Excellent answer! I didn't make the connection but that says it all.

Thanks,

tex

[jimd1981]

Tex,

That is a very well-reasoned line of thought, and it makes perfect sense.
In order to charge a LTC holder with Trespass (30.06) or Unlawful Carry by License Holder (46.035), they must post a 30.06 sign.
Still, a private school can make rules and regulations regarding concealed carry that do not require 30.06 notification.

So, how does that work? See if I have this sussed out:

Private school:
The school makes a rule that anyone caught carrying a handgun anywhere on premises, even with a LTC, will be expelled and/or fined.
They can announce their position in the student handbook, or post it on a bulletin board, and they can penalize any student/teacher carrying with expulsion and/or a fine. If you agree to their terms, say by purchasing a ticket or signing into the school, you could be fined as well.
Effective notice isn't required for their rule, regulation, or provision. You can't be criminally charged under 30.06 or 46.035, though, but you can be kicked out of school.

Public school:
A public school is unable to make this rule without going through the (d) - (d-4) process, which allows LTC holders to carry in some places, and which require effective notice under Section 30.06. So it would appear that they can't make a rule, regulation, or provision that penalizes you without effective notice.

Have I got that right?

So, a question:
Can someone who is NOT a student, and who is carrying concealed (LTC Holder), be arrested at a private school which does not post effective notice under 30.06? I don't think so. Not for Trespass or Unlawful Carry. I'm not even sure that a student or faculty member could be arrested for those charges. The student or faculty member could be administratively punished, though. And that can't (or shouldn't) happen under the regulations for a public school -- which requires 30.06 notification.

[LucasMcCain]

So while we're exploring the nuances of campus carry, I've got a question that came up in conversation today that I didn't have an answer to.

If on a public university campus, can you open carry outside of the buildings?

My understanding was that you could carry concealed before campus carry and open carry passed. You just couldn't enter any of the buildings. I may be wrong about that, but that was what I understood to be the case. It would stand to reason then that you could open carry there now as long as you covered up before entering a building. However, I am not even close to being sure about this, so I thought I would bring it up here before taking the time to dig through the law and try to figure it out. Thoughts?

[jimd1981]

Lucas,

This is the from the "Effective August 1st" part of 46.035 "Unlawful Carry License Holder":

(a-1) Notwithstanding Subsection (a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a partially or wholly visible handgun, regardless of whether the handgun is holstered, on or about the license holder’s person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally or knowingly displays the handgun in plain view of another person:
(1) on the premises of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education; or
(2) on any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education.

So, effectively, premises includes the walkways, driveways, streets, etc. with regards to "Open Carry on Campus".

Jim

[LucasMcCain]

Lucas,

This is the from the "Effective August 1st" part of 46.035 "Unlawful Carry License Holder":

(a-1) Notwithstanding Subsection (a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a partially or wholly visible handgun, regardless of whether the handgun is holstered, on or about the license holder’s person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally or knowingly displays the handgun in plain view of another person:
(1) on the premises of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education; or
(2) on any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education.

So, effectively, premises includes the walkways, driveways, streets, etc. with regards to "Open Carry on Campus".

Jim

Good to know. Thanks! I'm not a student anymore, but I occasionally find myself on the UTA campus for various reasons. I thoroughly intend to carry there in the future, so I want to make sure I know exactly what the limits are. Sounds like I'll be keeping it concealed at all times.

Kind of makes me wonder about riding my motorcycle down streets that go through the campus though. Cooper Street is a major thoroughfare, and it goes right through UTA. Does that mean I can't OC while riding there? Seems hard to believe, but that would seem to be the letter of the law.