Open Carry at Business

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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EEllis
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#16

Post by EEllis »

It's not so much that they are breaking the law as an argument to what the the law really says. What does " under the person's control" mean. Some seem to believe it must only be the owner or manager. Personally I think if you can tell someone else to get the heck out then a premises is at least partially under your control but there is obviously a lot of grey area in the law. For all practical purposes tho I have seen lots of businesses allow open carry and never heard of a single instance of anyone ever being prosecuted for open carry so I personally believe that being an employee is enough to allow open carry in a private business.

cb1000rider
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#17

Post by cb1000rider »

oohrah wrote:OK, I just looked up PC 46 also. There are no exceptions for target practice or hunting. How can I go to a range and rent a gun for practice without a license? How can go to someone elses property and hunt? There has to be other exceptions 46.02, but I can't find them. Thanks for the help.
You're incorrect, but it's hard to keep it all straight:

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/46.15.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:

" is on the person's own premises or premises under
the person's control
unless the person is an employee or agent of
the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility
is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or
property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision "

"is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's
residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;"

EEllis
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#18

Post by EEllis »

I was discussing this the other day with a lawyer I know. Not his field so he wasn't speaking with his attorney hat on but he had a bit of a different take on the issue. He thought that due to the phrasing the law was referring to an area under exclusive control vs. what some would call "common ground". So in theory if you can tell someone off the street "No" as to entry then you could legally carry. It wouldn't really matter how you are able to have that control, by that I mean employment, family, or just general approval of the owner, and there shouldn't be any particular limit on the number of people who have control over the property for the determination of open carry.

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1shooter
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#19

Post by 1shooter »

Thanks for all the coments...I think...So if we change all this up, and carry a long gun...is that legal... cause as far as i know, its legal to carry open long guns (Rifle or Shotguns)...
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Keith B
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#20

Post by Keith B »

1shooter wrote:Thanks for all the coments...I think...So if we change all this up, and carry a long gun...is that legal... cause as far as i know, its legal to carry open long guns (Rifle or Shotguns)...
Long gun open carry is legal, but depending on where you work and if you have customers that come to your location, you may get a lot of really strange looks and some that don't want to come in or come back.

Why don't you just get your CHL and then you can legally carry unless the business is one that is prohibited from carrying by statute.
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TexasCajun
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#21

Post by TexasCajun »

cb1000rider wrote:
oohrah wrote:OK, I just looked up PC 46 also. There are no exceptions for target practice or hunting. How can I go to a range and rent a gun for practice without a license? How can go to someone elses property and hunt? There has to be other exceptions 46.02, but I can't find them. Thanks for the help.
You're incorrect, but it's hard to keep it all straight:

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/46.15.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:

" is on the person's own premises or premises under
the person's control
unless the person is an employee or agent of
the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility
is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or
property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision "

"is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's
residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;"
This still doesn't explain by what authority the sales associates & other staff are able to open carry at The Arms Room. If the owner can't confer authority (as stated earlier in this thread) and they're not employed as security, how is it so?
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Keith B
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#22

Post by Keith B »

TexasCajun wrote: This still doesn't explain by what authority the sales associates & other staff are able to open carry at The Arms Room. If the owner can't confer authority (as stated earlier in this thread) and they're not employed as security, how is it so?
There is no case law on 'in control' so many are playing the card that says 'these employees are in control of the premises' and letting them open carry. A gun range also gets a possible other pass as it could be considered they are all engaged in a sporting activity, especially is the store has a range in it.
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1shooter
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#23

Post by 1shooter »

I have my CHL, its on it way...

android
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#24

Post by android »

If you have keys to open/close a retail location, you are clearly in control of that property.

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1shooter
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#25

Post by 1shooter »

android wrote:If you have keys to open/close a retail location, you are clearly in control of that property.
I would think so...

gringo pistolero
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#26

Post by gringo pistolero »

android wrote:If you have keys to open/close a retail location, you are clearly in control of that property.
I agree that's a good argument for control, but let's look at the other side of that coin.

If some property is under my control, I don't need a CHL to carry there, so I can ignore 30.06 signs. In these days of electronic locks, does an access card or code that opens the doors 24x7 mean I'm in control of the property? Does it matter who else is present in the building? Does it matter if there's a company policy prohibiting guns and, if so, am I really in control of the property?

I don't know any case law answering these questions, so I'm just throwing them out there as food for thought.
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C-dub
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#27

Post by C-dub »

The gun store folks might be breaking the law, but it is also kind of a place where an activity is taking place where guns are expected. Maybe it's just that no one has complained to the police about it.
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bdickens
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#28

Post by bdickens »

TexasCajun wrote:Interesting. Most of the sales associates at The Arms Room in League City open carry both in the store and on the range. Are you guys saying that they're all breaking the law by doing so?

Yes.

There is, however, sometimes a big difference between what is legal and what one can get away with.
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Pecos
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#29

Post by Pecos »

Keith is right: The gun store I go to has a range too. All the employees open carry. The store caters to a LOT of leos. there has never been a problem.
Thats the only place of business that Ive seen with open carry in Bexar county.
But then again the only place i go to is the gun store & Wall-Mart!!! "rlol"
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VMI77
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Re: Open Carry at Business

#30

Post by VMI77 »

Keith B wrote:
Jason K wrote:
Keith B wrote:
jocat54 wrote:Just curious.....why couldn't I as a property owner say or give another control of said property.

Which brings up another question in my mind.........if wife and I are both on the property who is in control of the premises? (nevermind I really do know ther answer to that) :mrgreen:
It is a gray area. The question comes down to how many people can be in control of the property at one time. There is no case law or AG opinion that I am aware of. So, you could argue that both people carrying were in control of the premises, but if that other person owned it and was there with you, then as a DA wanting to prosecute for an Unlawful Carry charge I would argue that the owner was actually the one in control and would override any control you really had.
Even if the person carrying is a representative of the owner?.....
If you are a representative of the owner and are the one that is truly in control of the premises, then you meet the letter of the law. The issue is if the true owner and you are both there, then I would say they are really in control and you are not.

So, personally, I would not want to be the test case on this one.
What if the property is jointly owned? The most obvious case being property owned by husband and wife? Does being a partial owner count as control? What if I rent out my property to my son, or someone else, for $1.00 --would that put him in control?
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