Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

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Dan1416
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Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#1

Post by Dan1416 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:45 am

In a situation where I draw my firearm on an attacker and he complies by stopping the attack once he sees my gun but does not run away. What should I do? Should I command them to lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until the cops arrive? My concern with this approach is with on-lookers that would come across this scene. It may be that someone shoots me thinking that I'm robbing my attacker. Should I carry a pair of handcuffs to constraint the attacker then holster my gun? It almost seems like it is best to tell the attacker to run away but then they would be free to potentially attack someone else.

I know in all likely hood the attacker would run away at the site of my gun but I haven't been able to come up with a good solution for this scenario.


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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#2

Post by Abraham » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:07 am

Dan1416,

If I were attacked, drew my pistol and the attacker stopped - I'd simply leave.

When it is safe, yes, I would immediately call the police and relay what happened.

No, don't carry handcuffs, you're not law enforcement.

I'm interested too in what how others would handle such a situation.


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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#3

Post by cirus » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:10 am

I don't intend to draw unless I intend to use it. I may place my hand on my holstered gun to see if that stops the threat. If my gun comes out someone's getting shot.

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#4

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:22 am

Abraham wrote:Dan1416,

If I were attacked, drew my pistol and the attacker stopped - I'd simply leave.

When it is safe, yes, I would immediately call the police and relay what happened.

No, don't carry handcuffs, you're not law enforcement.

I'm interested too in what how others would handle such a situation.
Sounds like good advice, but will you be leaving gun in hand, or in holster? If you reholster, is the attacker likely to pursue the attack? Personally, I'd want to get the heck out of there too, but it may NOT be practical, in which case the next best thing would be to command him to get down and hold him at gunpoint while calling 911. But what if he refuses to get down on the ground? Well, then, the next best thing would probably be to back away until you had established enough distance to safely reholster, WHILE calling 911, and then get the heck away from there. Keep the 911 operator apprised of your location until the po-po arrives. OTH, what to do if the perp follows you as you back away, waiting for you to reholster? Etc., etc., etc. But no matter the situation, once the attacker has stopped his attack, you need to establish enough distance between you and him so that, if he should decide to press the attack again, you have enough space/time to react appropriately.

There IS NO ONE CORRECT ANSWER to this question, as long as you don't end up indefensibly killing the other guy purely in cold blood. You have to play it by ear, and trust your own judgement at the time.......AND hope that any potential witnesses will tend to back up your side of the story instead of his. This places certain ethical demands upon you, to which the perp is not constrained. This means that, even though you're the one possessed of the means of deadly force, you're not necessarily the one in control of the situation - control of which depends ENTIRELY on the perp's decision-making processes, which may be impaired by drugs, psychosis, etc. Again, the very best you can do is to, as safely as you can, establish enough distance between yourself and him as possible, and hope that he obeys your verbal commands.

This is one big reason why the LTC course spends more time on knowledge of the law, and deescalation and conflict resolution, than it does on firearms proficiency.
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#5

Post by Oldgringo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:14 pm

What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#6

Post by Jusme » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:27 pm

Oldgringo wrote:What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?
Each circumstance will be different. Is the attacker armed? If so backing away and leaving him armed may be a mistake. The scenario the OP paints, will probably not be a normal encounter, but I would want to put the attacker into the position least likely for him to resume an attack, and disarm him if necessary. I would have no issue with ordering him to the ground, and holding my gun on him while I or someone with me calls 911.
All of these are speculation, because a lot will depend on the location. A gas station parking lot with others around, will be different from an isolated location, like a rural highway. My actions will change depending on how quickly I can move to an area of safety, how far away I expect law enforcement to be, etc.
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#7

Post by Acronym Esq » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:49 pm

Dan1416 wrote:In a situation where I draw my firearm on an attacker and he complies by stopping the attack once he sees my gun but does not run away. What should I do?
Great question illustrating an interesting problem. You are only justified in threatening to use deadly force only if you are justified in using deadly force. If the situation is severe enough to require deadly force, why are you not using it? If the situation is not severe enough to require deadly force, you are committing aggravated assault.

The solution is simple: either you fear imminent, illegal force that causes serious bodily injury or death against yourself or a loved one... or you don't. If you are fighting for life, then fight.

Great question. It helps me clarify what guns are good for. Guns may be effective at stopping at 16 year old kid from breaking into my car at night, but they may not be good for that.

Acronym 3/25/2017 12:47 PM


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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#8

Post by Dan1416 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:01 pm

Oldgringo wrote:What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?
In this scenario I was thinking about being approached by someone with a knife asking me for everything I have. Upon drawing my gun, he drops the knife but does not retreat.


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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#9

Post by RSX11 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:42 pm

Great question illustrating an interesting problem. You are only justified in threatening to use deadly force only if you are justified in using deadly force.
Actually, the law says you can threaten to use deadly force in response to force - not just deadly force - threatening to use deadly force (ie drawing your heater and pointing it at a goblin) is only considered the use of force. This is fresh in my mind since I have to argue it on other forums at least once a month, whenever someone announces that you can't "brandish" a firearm in Texas under any circumstances.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor’s purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#10

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:03 pm

Dan1416 wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?
In this scenario I was thinking about being approached by someone with a knife asking me for everything I have. Upon drawing my gun, he drops the knife but does not retreat.
In that case, I think I would order him to back away from the knife, and to not stop until I told him to. If he complied, I'd kick it far enough out of the way to put it out of action. If he didn't comply, I would deal with him as if he had refused to drop it.

The thing is, some of the answer depends on the age and condition of the LTC holder. I'm an old man, and I have a few orthopedic issues. I can't move like I used to be able to, and that limits my options to fewer choices. I begin with the assumption that I'm at a physical disadvantage, and go from there. The beauty of it is, I can go for the gun with the same motion I would use to go for my wallet. Someone "asks" me to fork over my wallet, I'll draw the gun.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#11

Post by Skiprr » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:37 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:The thing is, some of the answer depends on the age and condition of the LTC holder. I'm an old man, and I have a few orthopedic issues. I can't move like I used to be able to, and that limits my options to fewer choices. I begin with the assumption that I'm at a physical disadvantage, and go from there. The beauty of it is, I can go for the gun with the same motion I would use to go for my wallet. Someone "asks" me to fork over my wallet, I'll draw the gun.
Being "correct-handed" helps you there, as well. When you reach with your left hand, the bad guy stays relaxed. ;-)

The OP just joined the Forum today, and may now be realizing that thinking through "what if" scenarios can be infinitely useful but, because of near-infinite situational exigencies, may be impossible to answer in an open forum like this other than with the consultant's perennially favorite phrase: "It depends."

But as TAM points out, disparity of force is a very real as well as legal factor. If the 25-year-old me wanted to put down the now <cough>-year-old me, and he were within eight to 10 feet and unarmed while I had my 1911 on my hip, there's very little--if anything--I could do to stop him. OODA Loop and action/reaction, of course, but more so simple physical disparity.

If there's a lesson in this it comes from Josey Wales: "A man's gotta know his limitations." And that's a fluid and ever-changing boundary, young or old.

An aside, note that TAM wears an epic beard, but only goatee and mustache. I assume his choice is to prevent the interference of facial hair with the seal of over-the-ear hearing protection. ;-) I know of a couple other Forum members who also have "epic" beards. Maybe we need a "Bearding" Topic to talk about current and future bearders, and the maintenance and grooming of same?
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#12

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:24 pm

Skiprr wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:The thing is, some of the answer depends on the age and condition of the LTC holder. I'm an old man, and I have a few orthopedic issues. I can't move like I used to be able to, and that limits my options to fewer choices. I begin with the assumption that I'm at a physical disadvantage, and go from there. The beauty of it is, I can go for the gun with the same motion I would use to go for my wallet. Someone "asks" me to fork over my wallet, I'll draw the gun.
Being "correct-handed" helps you there, as well. When you reach with your left hand, the bad guy stays relaxed. ;-)

You know, I had exactly that in mind when I wrote that. :mrgreen: I actually keep my wallet in my right hip pocket. It's the sinister side of me. ;-)
Skiprr wrote:The OP just joined the Forum today, and may now be realizing that thinking through "what if" scenarios can be infinitely useful but, because of near-infinite situational exigencies, may be impossible to answer in an open forum like this other than with the consultant's perennially favorite phrase: "It depends."

But as TAM points out, disparity of force is a very real as well as legal factor. If the 25-year-old me wanted to put down the now <cough>-year-old me, and he were within eight to 10 feet and unarmed while I had my 1911 on my hip, there's very little--if anything--I could do to stop him. OODA Loop and action/reaction, of course, but more so simple physical disparity.

If there's a lesson in this it comes from Josey Wales: "A man's gotta know his limitations." And that's a fluid and ever-changing boundary, young or old.
Exactly, which is why I advised from the top to put distance between one's self and the attacker as soon as he stops pressing the attack.......and....to not try to kick the knife out of the way until you can get the attacker to take some steps back so you can advance to do so.
Skiprr wrote:An aside, note that TAM wears an epic beard, but only goatee and mustache. I assume his choice is to prevent the interference of facial hair with the seal of over-the-ear hearing protection. ;-) I know of a couple other Forum members who also have "epic" beards. Maybe we need a "Bearding" Topic to talk about current and future bearders, and the maintenance and grooming of same?
Well, here's where I confess to the one thing I am vain about.......my beard. I simply look better with the goatee and mustache than with a full beard. But, each June I begin to let the sides grow out because it will be a full beard by December, and the missus and I do a Santa Claus gig at a local pro-life prenatal clinic in mid-December. When Santa gets back to the North Pole that night, the sides come right off until next June.
Image

Plus, keeping the sides off means I can shoot my Sub-2000 without the charging handle snatching hair off my face. :lol:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#13

Post by Ruark » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:32 pm

Jusme wrote: I would have no issue with ordering him to the ground, and holding my gun on him while I or someone with me calls 911.
As I have mentioned before, I have issues with this, and all these scenarios where you "hold a gun on him." He stops the attack. You say "on the ground!" He stands there. So what are you going to do then? Blow his head off? Good luck with that one.
-Ruark


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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#14

Post by rotor » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:46 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Dan1416 wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?
In this scenario I was thinking about being approached by someone with a knife asking me for everything I have. Upon drawing my gun, he drops the knife but does not retreat.
In that case, I think I would order him to back away from the knife, and to not stop until I told him to. If he complied, I'd kick it far enough out of the way to put it out of action. If he didn't comply, I would deal with him as if he had refused to drop it.

The thing is, some of the answer depends on the age and condition of the LTC holder. I'm an old man, and I have a few orthopedic issues. I can't move like I used to be able to, and that limits my options to fewer choices. I begin with the assumption that I'm at a physical disadvantage, and go from there. The beauty of it is, I can go for the gun with the same motion I would use to go for my wallet. Someone "asks" me to fork over my wallet, I'll draw the gun.
So you would shoot? I was thinking along the lines that by the time you pulled your gun you would legally be justified in shooting.

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#15

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:47 pm

rotor wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Dan1416 wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:What kind/manner of attack are we talking about? I don't think that we'd want our response to be such as to make a bad situation worse, eh?
In this scenario I was thinking about being approached by someone with a knife asking me for everything I have. Upon drawing my gun, he drops the knife but does not retreat.
In that case, I think I would order him to back away from the knife, and to not stop until I told him to. If he complied, I'd kick it far enough out of the way to put it out of action. If he didn't comply, I would deal with him as if he had refused to drop it.

The thing is, some of the answer depends on the age and condition of the LTC holder. I'm an old man, and I have a few orthopedic issues. I can't move like I used to be able to, and that limits my options to fewer choices. I begin with the assumption that I'm at a physical disadvantage, and go from there. The beauty of it is, I can go for the gun with the same motion I would use to go for my wallet. Someone "asks" me to fork over my wallet, I'll draw the gun.
So you would shoot? I was thinking along the lines that by the time you pulled your gun you would legally be justified in shooting.
To clarify, if he did not drop the knife, but he DID stop his advance, I would not shoot. I would back away and put distance between us. If he reacted by following, to close up the distance, I would most likely interpret that as his decision to continue his attack, and I would then probably shoot.

The thing is, as has been pointed out above, there are a million scenarios. What if bystanders gathered behind him, so that it wasn't safe to shoot without the risk of hitting a bystander? I'd have to find another way to either break contact or get a better angle on him to get bystanders out of the background. All of this is purely hypothetical though, and none of us knows exactly how he or she will actually react until the moment of truth arrives - which we all fervently pray will not happen. BUT.... I do think that the more attempts you make to break contact while it is possible, the more likely you are going to be positively supported by any witnesses if you do end up having to shoot. In the end, a crazy person may not give you the chance to do anything BUT shoot. But a "rational" criminal, who watches out for his own self interest, is probably not likely to try and press home a knife attack against a man with a gun in his hand, unless he's trying to commit suicide by "the other guy", leaving you no choice but to shoot.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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