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Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am
by E.Marquez
Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
OK, yes I am considering the "source"
But I like to be informed, so If I have misunderstood that Hospitals CAN post vice the statement that they MUST post or are are statutorily off limits. So regardless of the source Id like to know the ground truth.
Eric Pankonien There is no requirement for hospitals or doctors to post, it is their choice. Government buildings cannot post except for a meeting and then only the meeting can be posted. Federal government buildings are automatically off limits with no signage required.
Followed by
Terry Holcomb Sr. Yes there is... It's in the health code that hospitals are required to post
and
Terry Holcomb Sr. Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number "51".
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
What am I missing here? Why is he wrong and what I think I know from the verbiage in 30.06 and 46 is correct Hospitals have no requirement to post, but if they do wish to prohibit concealed carry they must post
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 am
by mojo84
The 51% sign is different than 30.06 and 30.07 signs.
Would have to do some research when I get a chance. Maybe srothstein will chime in.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:19 am
by jminn1
If I'm reading the original post correctly... a large 51 sign would indicate a TABC 51% alcohol license restriction, not 06/07.
Weird...
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:58 am
by E.Marquez
mojo84 wrote:The 51% sign is different than 30.06 and 30.07 signs.
Would have to do some research when I get a chance. Maybe srothstein will chime in.
To the laymen it is worded strangely
http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/government- ... 1-204.html
I do not understand why a Hosp would need a "51" sign ???
I must be misreading or understanding
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:16 am
by NotRPB
Hospitals aren't required to post a 30,06/30.07 which are binding on licensees, but a different sign with different language is specified.
Hospitals "must" post a "51" worded sign without the 51 on it (Though I've seen hospitals without it, and seen hospitals where the sign is only a couple inches big, barely noticeable, encased in glass, or a picture frame, on a wall)
I could be wrong, but to a licensee carrying a handgun, effectively it is similar in effect to a "ghostbuster/gunbuster" sign I think.
It is a "no trespassing" type of sign where a non-licensee, carrying a handgun, could be trespassing since there was notice (in addition to a unlicensed handgun carry charge)
As I understand it. the "required" hospital required sign would affect non-licensees carrying handguns, similar to a "blue" TABC sign
Neither the mandated "hospital 51 language" nor the non-required not-mandated 30.06-30.07 signs affect my right to carry my concealed folding rifle into the hospital since none of those signs are addressed to concealed rifle carriers
That's my layman's opinion and I'm pretty sure of it so I'm sticking to it.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:24 am
by mojo84
E.Marquez wrote:mojo84 wrote:The 51% sign is different than 30.06 and 30.07 signs.
Would have to do some research when I get a chance. Maybe srothstein will chime in.
To the laymen it is worded strangely
http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/government- ... 1-204.html
I do not understand why a Hosp would need a "51" sign ???
I must be misreading or understanding
If I recall correctly, good chance I am not, it has to do with the medications and such. It seems there is some conflicting laws and rules. Hopefully, someone with a better understanding will help explain.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:05 pm
by Keith B
Here is an explanation by srothstein about the statute
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 24#p172524
Bascially, it still is law, but not enforced.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
This has always caused confusion and understandably so. I won't go into detail why this is written as it is, but I'll explain the impact. Let me start by saying there is no requirement that hospitals or nursing homes display 30.06 signs.
I'll put this in bullet points to hopefully make it easier to follow.
- 1. Gov't Code 411.204 does not create a criminal offense. It is only a notice requirement. Offenses related to an LTC carrying a handgun are found in the Penal Code, typically in Chp. 46 and §§30.06/30.07.
2. Subsection 411.204(c) creates the well-known "51% sign."
3. Section 411.204(b) requires hospitals and nursing homes to post the sign set out in 411.204(c), except for the requirement to superimpose "51" over the verbiage.
4. TPC §46.035(b)(4) creates the offense of LTC carrying on the premises of a licensed hospital or nursing home.
- i. This prohibition applies only if given notice pursuant to TPC §30.06/30.07, (see TPC §46.035(i) ).
ii. TPC §§30.06 and 30.07 require the precise language set out in each Code provision, as evidenced by placing the required language in quotation marks.
iii. The 51% sign required by Subsection 411.204(c) does not contain the language required by TPC §30.06/30.07, thus it does not trigger the prohibition found in TPC §46.035(b)(4).
Here is the bottom line. Hospitals and nursing homes are technically required to post a 51% sign without the numerals "51" superimposed on the sign. This would apply to non-LTC's, but it's already unlawful for them to carry in a hospital or nursing home anyway. As a practical matter, hospitals or nursing homes typically post 30.06 and/or 30.07 signs as those signs are readily available and they meet the requirement of Gov't Code §411.204(b).
There, clear as mud, right?
Chas.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:27 pm
by E.Marquez
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
There, clear as mud, right?
Chas.
Surprisingly ...Yes Clean and simple? NO But I do understand now, so thank you.
I may or may not attempt to post something in that other forum as anyone that says anything other then "I agree" or "ok" to THAT PERSON gets jumped on.
But the thread was implying Hospitals had to post was being read as Hospitals had to post a prohibition to concealed carry. And the one that made the generally correct statement of Hospitals having to post the 51% sign (minus 51) has not posted a calcification.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:25 pm
by NotRPB
Thank you Charles for the excellent explanation.
That really is clearly laid out.
Thanks
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:36 pm
by bblhd672
Charles L. Cotton wrote:This has always caused confusion and understandably so. I won't go into detail why this is written as it is, but I'll explain the impact. Let me start by saying there is no requirement that hospitals or nursing homes display 30.06 signs.
I'll put this in bullet points to hopefully make it easier to follow.
- 1. Gov't Code 411.204 does not create a criminal offense. It is only a notice requirement. Offenses related to an LTC carrying a handgun are found in the Penal Code, typically in Chp. 46 and §§30.06/30.07.
2. Subsection 411.204(c) creates the well-known "51% sign."
3. Section 411.204(b) requires hospitals and nursing homes to post the sign set out in 411.204(c), except for the requirement to superimpose "51" over the verbiage.
4. TPC §46.035(b)(4) creates the offense of LTC carrying on the premises of a licensed hospital or nursing home.
i. This prohibition applies only if given notice pursuant to TPC §30.06/30.07, (see TPC §46.035(i) ).
- ii. TPC §§30.06 and 30.07 require the precise language set out in each Code provision, as evidenced by placing the required language in quotation marks.
iii. The 51% sign required by Subsection 411.204(c) does not contain the language required by TPC §30.06/30.07, thus it does not trigger the prohibition found in TPC §46.035(b)(4).
Here is the bottom line. Hospitals and nursing homes are technically required to post a 51% sign without the numerals "51" superimposed on the sign. This would apply to non-LTC's, but it's already unlawful for them to carry in a hospital or nursing home anyway. As a practical matter, hospitals or nursing homes typically post 30.06 and/or 30.07 signs as those signs are readily available and they meet the requirement of Gov't Code §411.204(b).
There, clear as mud, right?
Chas.
And this is why we have Charles and that other forum has TH,Sr. I have not and will not visit the other one.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:55 pm
by Oldgringo
My hospital/medical facilities are not posted and I'm going to 'let that sleeping dog lie'.
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:58 pm
by PBratton
All of my Campus' got posted 06 and 07 just before 30.07 came into effect.
It hurt having to help with that...
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:15 pm
by crazy2medic
Interesting this thread popped up, I was taking a patient to children's hospital of Dallas and I noticed the sign outside the ED entrance for the ambulance crews, large sign about 3'×4' that was a conglomeration of both 30.06 and 30.07, not two separate signs, one big one with the wording blended together referencing .06 an .07!
My first thought somebody paid alot of money for an invalid sign!
Re: Hospitals MUST post 3006/3007?
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:21 pm
by rotor
Went to my local hospital today and it previously had been posted 30.06/07 and those signs are gone. Instead this sign was posted...
https://imgur.com/b2Xlf3K
Talked to the head of security who is a friend and he said that I could not carry but he was not going to pat me down. I am gathering from what Charles said that I could have legally carried.
The text for the sign should be...
must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public. but the hospital sign does not need a 51% as do alcohol sale places.
https://imgur.com/7eCXSaP
The sign doesn't even look valid for 411.204 and they took down 30.06/07 signs. There is no mention of handgun, only weapon. Does not meet red 51% sign criteria.
Confusion abounds.