House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

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EP45
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House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#1

Post by EP45 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:56 pm

Hello,

I was really bummed out as had a house of worship safety meeting (minimal info as my goal is to change attitudes not to out “individuals”, places of worship, churches, etc.). It was attended by some ex-military and current LTC instructors, as well as lay individuals as myself.

Background: House of worship in state of Texas with proper 30.06 and 30.07 signs at all entrances and fairly good security by LTC holders to the best of my knowledge. Unarmed and armed members including a vehicle on the outside of the building that has a magnetic “Security” tag on the door and in the past an individual who was wearing a “Security” T-shirt (it was reiterated to me he was unarmed).

The security process is to attempt to control all means of ingress and egress, alarms on doors, cameras, and “select” members with LTC/handgun; no metal detectors. The comment was made that they want to “control” access of “non-approved LTC handgun holders”. I did point out that ONLY LTC holders would follow the signs as in TX, non-LTC handgun holders are already breaking the law (I did mention long guns a totally different issue and I know how concealable some long guns can be).

Lots of ideas bandied about, e.g. hiring off-duty LE intermittently. They were firm about keeping the signs; by the way I have a signed letter from head clergy (effective consent despite effective notice with the signs). The contention is that there a lots of irresponsible LTC carriers and those that are poorly trained (e.g. the woman who leaves a loaded revolver in her purse without supervision was cited). I mentioned the study showing LTC more law-abiding than off-duty police officers and other stats. Unfortunately, individual experience TRUMPed (pun intended) data (again).
https://www.dailywire.com/news/report-c ... %20percent.


My 2 contentions are the signs advertise 2 things:
1. We are a gun-free zone; though in reality we are not.
2. We have a gun control ideology, something often linked with the leftists/liberals.

Areas of concern during the meeting (i.e. inaccurate statements):
1. Handguns have not been legal in places of worship in Texas until 9/1/19. I tried to explain Ken Paxton’s AG opinion from 2017 and linked a law office FAQ with clarification it was legal in 1997 (if no signage).
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/ne ... s-churches
http://www.lapinlawtx.com/firearms-blog ... of-worship
2. I was told that the 30.06 and 30.07 signs now give the safety team the ability to question individual for their LTC information (obviously another area of disinformation).
https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._ ... on_411.205
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... GV.411.htm
3. 30.06 and 30.07 signs do not advertise that we are a gun-free zone but rather the criminals will look at our formidable array of cameras, locked doors, and select CONCEALED handgun carriers, and determine the facility is hardened against attack.

I was probably a little too passionate but was disappointed that these individuals reacted as they did in the great state of Texas.

Not really going to leave the church, maybe become affiliated with the security team to attempt change.

Any help, references or insight appreciated.

Thank you.


priusron
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#2

Post by priusron » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:30 pm

When I see any signs on my church limiting my ability to carry concealed in church, it is time for me to find another place of worship, and my pastor will know why. Fortunately our current church has no issues with concealed carry.


flechero
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#3

Post by flechero » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:49 pm

Sadly it sounds like the folks running your meeting have illustrated the difference between an expert and a know it all.

I wish you good luck in finding a more suitable place to worship.

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Flightmare
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#4

Post by Flightmare » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:12 pm

https://cathdal.org/home/statement-on-t ... rch-safety
In light of this tragic event, Bishop Edward J. Burns has asked that parishes in the Diocese of Dallas consider appropriate safety measures, including the removal of all signs prohibiting the concealed carry of firearms on campus to eliminate any perception that any of our parishes would be an easy target for terror.
So the Diocese of Dallas determined that removing the signs was to reduce the perception of a soft target. But the house of worship you are mentioning thinks the opposite?
Deplorable lunatic since 2016

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#5

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:16 pm

Any armed person who is not a LEO or licensed security guard who is serving in a security capacity cannot wear anything that uses the word "security" or gives the impression they are a LEO or security guard. So too for signs on vehicles. Doing so violates the Occupations Code.

Chas.

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MadMonkey
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#6

Post by MadMonkey » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:17 pm

priusron wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:30 pm
When I see any signs on my church limiting my ability to carry concealed in church, it is time for me to find another place of worship
Yep. A supposedly godly place refusing to allow me to protect the gift of life I've been given is frankly insulting and incompatible with my beliefs.
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God" - Benjamin Franklin

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Jusme
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#7

Post by Jusme » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:54 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:16 pm
Any armed person who is not a LEO or licensed security guard who is serving in a security capacity cannot wear anything that uses the word "security" or gives the impression they are a LEO or security guard. So too for signs on vehicles. Doing so violates the Occupations Code.

Chas.
That was my understanding also. When my church had discussions about a security team, I told them that they could not display any insignia, or badges ( even small pins similar to the pins worn by ushers and greeters) that used the word security, unless they wanted to either become a licensed agency, or hire one. Our security, is simply LTC holders, who are placed in strategic locations. All strictly volunteers.
We have no signage, and do not discourage LTC holders from carrying.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#8

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:19 pm

Jusme wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:54 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:16 pm
Any armed person who is not a LEO or licensed security guard who is serving in a security capacity cannot wear anything that uses the word "security" or gives the impression they are a LEO or security guard. So too for signs on vehicles. Doing so violates the Occupations Code.

Chas.
That was my understanding also. When my church had discussions about a security team, I told them that they could not display any insignia, or badges ( even small pins similar to the pins worn by ushers and greeters) that used the word security, unless they wanted to either become a licensed agency, or hire one. Our security, is simply LTC holders, who are placed in strategic locations. All strictly volunteers.
We have no signage, and do not discourage LTC holders from carrying.
My church uses off-duty LEO for security. They wear blue polo shirts saying "Emergency Response" with no other insignia on them. The medical responder shirts are red and also say Emergency Response with no other insignia. We are posted 30.07. LOTS of members carry though.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#9

Post by Texas_Blaze » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:08 pm

I Love My Church and You would too because safety & awareness is an important part of what we do on Sundays & special events (conferences etc). We have volunteers, some armed, some not. We have attorneys, doctors, welders, all sorts of folks on the safety team. We carry walkies w/ ear pieces. We also hire a local officer & park his cruiser up front. We have strategic placement of safety team members during services. We lock select doors after service starts, funneling late comers to the front entry of the church. We reserve the last few rows of seats for late comers so they don’t have a reason to go up front seats. Ushers enforce this. We have cameras. We keep safety team members in the lobby throughout all of service. We walk the grounds and check the parking lot and doors of building. We have flashbang & bean bag shotguns placed strategically.

The above is all true. It was born out of one man that recognized our deficiencies in safety and now leads the team.

My point is that being armed is only a part of safety. Awareness & alertness along with impediments and deterants are not to be undervalued. Safety is the most important issue and should be the focus.
Distinguished author of opinions and pro bono self proclaimed internet lawyer providing expert advice on what you should do and believe on all matters of life.

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SewTexas
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#10

Post by SewTexas » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:59 pm

I lived in Colorado Springs during the New Life shooting.....we won't attend church at a school, we won't attend a church with an .06 sign....God would have to seriously move mountains if that's what he wanted.
~Tracy
Gun control is what you talk about when you don't want to talk about the truth ~ Colion Noir

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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#11

Post by Middle Age Russ » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:18 am

Everyone who worships wants to do so in safety. For me, that means that I choose to worship where I and my fellow congregants can legally be armed. Our church is posted 30.07, which I have no problem with. I serve on a rotating basis as a primary security person, attending worship in the narthex, locking the main entry doors and watching the approaches while the service is conducted in the sanctuary.
Russ
Stay aware and engaged. Awareness buys time; time buys options. Survival may require moving quickly past the Observe, Orient and Decide steps to ACT.
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#12

Post by WildBill » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:14 pm

EP45 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:56 pm
Hello,

I was really bummed out as had a house of worship safety meeting (minimal info as my goal is to change attitudes not to out “individuals”, places of worship, churches, etc.). It was attended by some ex-military and current LTC instructors, as well as lay individuals as myself.

Background: House of worship in state of Texas with proper 30.06 and 30.07 signs at all entrances and fairly good security by LTC holders to the best of my knowledge. Unarmed and armed members including a vehicle on the outside of the building that has a magnetic “Security” tag on the door and in the past an individual who was wearing a “Security” T-shirt (it was reiterated to me he was unarmed).

I was probably a little too passionate but was disappointed that these individuals reacted as they did in the great state of Texas.

Not really going to leave the church, maybe become affiliated with the security team to attempt change.

Any help, references or insight appreciated.

Thank you.
Hello EP45 and welcome to the forum. What a great first post.

I would suggest going back to the start of the safety meeting. Make sure that you have the proper church members on your safety committee.
Then discuss and obtain consensus of the core values of the church and a statement of the shared vision concerning the safety of church members.
Write down the statements and share with all of the church members.

Of course that will be difficult to agree, but once you do you can go back to make and follow the plan to achieve your goals.
As you keep moving ahead you can examine all of the proposed actions to see if they are consistent with your shared vision and core value statement.

If not, then you can determine and decide on another course of action. :tiphat:
NRA Endowment Member

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LucasMcCain
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#13

Post by LucasMcCain » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:28 pm

Our church is posted 30.07, and that doesn't particularly annoy me. We do have dedicated security, but they are not identified in any way; I just know what to look for. I carry every Sunday, just like I do every other day.

I would not attend or be a member of a church that posted 30.06 signs. Even if I could get some kind of exception letter from leadership. I'm not going to be part of a church family that has adopted anti-gun policies in violation of Biblical principles. It's not just a personal preference or safety issue; it's a theological issue. A church is supposed to be a group of like minded believers. If they don't believe in letting my brothers and sisters in the faith defend themselves, then we are not like minded.
I carry a gun so that I can go home to my family, and if need be, help you go home to yours.

I am not a lawyer.

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Texas_Blaze
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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#14

Post by Texas_Blaze » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:20 pm

LucasMcCain wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:28 pm
Our church is posted 30.07, and that doesn't particularly annoy me. We do have dedicated security, but they are not identified in any way; I just know what to look for. I carry every Sunday, just like I do every other day.

I would not attend or be a member of a church that posted 30.06 signs. Even if I could get some kind of exception letter from leadership. I'm not going to be part of a church family that has adopted anti-gun policies in violation of Biblical principles. It's not just a personal preference or safety issue; it's a theological issue. A church is supposed to be a group of like minded believers. If they don't believe in letting my brothers and sisters in the faith defend themselves, then we are not like minded.
Self-defense and firearms are independent of one another. A theological discussion rests purely on self-defense, independent of any specific type of weapon. An organization may consider all risks associated with allowing / disallowing firearms independently from support of self-defense. Thus, firearms aren’t a matter of theology or scripture.
Distinguished author of opinions and pro bono self proclaimed internet lawyer providing expert advice on what you should do and believe on all matters of life.


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Re: House of Worship/Church Safety Meeting Problems

#15

Post by cirus » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:48 pm

My preacher would have everyone open carrying or armed with a AR15 with a patrol sling. He's an old country boy .

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